November 8, 1919

UNION

George Brecken Nicholson

Unionist

Mr. G. B. NICHOLSON:

I was paired with the hon. member for Bellechasse (Mr. Fournier). Had I voted I would have voted for the motion.

Topic:   GRAND TRUNK RAILWAY.
Subtopic:   CONSIDERATION OP AMENDMENTS MADE BY THE SENATE TO BILL FOR THE ACQUISITION OP THE SYSTEM BY THE GOVERNMENT.
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L LIB

James Alexander Robb (Chief Government Whip)

Laurier Liberal

Mr. J. A. ROBB:

I was paired with the Chief Government Whip (Mr. Middlebro). Had I voted I would have voted against the motion.

Motion agreed to and Senate amendments concurred in.

(The list of pairs is supplied by the Chief Whips.)

Messrs.

Borden, Sir Robert, [DOT] Lemieux,

Doherty,

Green,

White, Sir Thomas, Stewart (Lanark),

Mewburn,

McCurdy,

Spinney,

Drayton, Sir Henry, Fraser,

Blake,

Crothers,

Allan,

Nicholson (Algoma), Lang,

Stacey,

Brien.

McGibbon (Musk oka), Bowman,

Rowell,

Crerar,

Hughes, Sir Sam, Kemp, Sir Edward, Middlebro,

Sifton,

Ames, Sir Herbert, Armstrong (York), Armstrong (Lambton), Arthurs,

Ballantyne,

Best,

Bonnell,

Boys, ,

Bristol,

Butts,

Casselman,

Chabot,

Chaplin,

Clark (Bruce),

Clark (Red Deer), Clarke (Wellington), Cronyn,

Crowe,

Currie,

Douglas (Strathcona), Douglas (Cape Breton S. and Rich.), Charlton,

Edwards,

Elkin,

Foster (York),

Fripp,

Marcil (Bonaventure), White (Victoria), McMaster,

Sinclair (Antigonish and Guysborough), Verville,

Chisholm,

Sinclair

(Queens, P. E. I.), Lavigueur,

Gladu,

Jacobs,

Ethier,

Lesage,

Fournier,

Casgrain,

Euler,

Gauvreau,

Pedlow,

Ross,

Archambault,

B61and,

Boivin,

Bourassa,

Robb,

Boyer,

Brouillard,

Bureau,

Cannon,

Cardin,

Copp,

Delisle,

Demers,

Denis,

Desaulniers, Deslauriers, j Duff,

DuTremblay,

Fontaine,

Gauthier,

Gervais,

Hunt,

Lafortune,

Lanctdt,

Leduc,

McCoig,

Lapointe (St. James),

Mayrand,

Pacaud,

Parent,

Power,

Prevost,

Topic:   GRAND TRUNK RAILWAY.
Subtopic:   CONSIDERATION OP AMENDMENTS MADE BY THE SENATE TO BILL FOR THE ACQUISITION OP THE SYSTEM BY THE GOVERNMENT.
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PACIFIC COAST PILOTAGE.


Hon. A. K. MACLEAN (for the Minister of Marine and Fisheries) moved the second reading of Bill No. 42 to amend the Canada Shipping Act (pilotage).


L LIB

Daniel Duncan McKenzie

Laurier Liberal

Mr. McKENZIE:

I have not seen a copy of this Bill which is now being distributed for the first time. I regard it as somewhat extraordinary that a Bill of such far-reaching importance to the commercial life of the country should be moved before copies of it have reached hon. members. The other night when the resolution was before the House I gave the minister clearly to understand that I at all events was opposed to it and considered it a highly important measure. The least courtesy I would expect from the minister, therefore, would be that the Bill would be placed within the reach of the members a few minutes before the second reading. The second reading now synchronizes with the distribution of the Bill, the contents of which I do not know, for I have not had time to study it. It was explained, when the resolution was moved, that this measure means that the safeguards surrounding the seamen of this country are in future to be placed in the hands of men who are "not shipmasters; and

Topic:   PACIFIC COAST PILOTAGE.
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UNION

Alexander Kenneth Maclean (Minister Without Portfolio)

Unionist

Mr. A. K. MACLEAN:

We are not at

that Bill yet. My hon. friend's remarks may be apropos in a few minutes, but at present a different Bill is before the House.

Topic:   PACIFIC COAST PILOTAGE.
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L LIB

Daniel Duncan McKenzie

Laurier Liberal

Mr. McKENZIE:

I beg your pardon. However, I objected yesterday to the Pilotage Bill to some extent, although my objection was not as strong as it is in regard to the measure to which I refer, which has for its purpose the giving of a free hand in maritime matters to persons who are not shipmasters. The minister says that the Pilotage Bill is before us, but my remarks will stand in regard to the other

Bill when it comes up. I must apologize to the minister for being perhaps a trifle hasty in my remarks, but as I have explained, I was under the impression that it was the other Bill and not the Pilotage Bill that was before the House. The Pilotage Bill does not appear to me to be as serious as the other.

Topic:   PACIFIC COAST PILOTAGE.
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UNION

Alfred Thompson

Unionist

Mr. ALFRED THOMPSON:

I confess considerable ignorance of the subject matter of this measure, and as it has to do with a considerable portion of the navigation of British Columbia I am particularly interested in it and would be glad of an explanation from the minister as to the purport of the Bill.

Topic:   PACIFIC COAST PILOTAGE.
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UNION

Alexander Kenneth Maclean (Minister Without Portfolio)

Unionist

Mr. A. K. MACLEAN:

The Bill is to enable Canadian registered shipping operating between the province of British Columbia and American ports as far south as San Francisco, and sailing as far north as Alaska, to be relieved of pilotage. We are *simply giving the shipping owned in British Columbia the same relief that years ago was given to Nova Scotia and New Brunswick and later to Quebec and Ontario shipping. As a matter of fact the law has been evaded for many years in British Columbia, and the class of shipping to which this Bill refers has not paid any pilotage.

Topic:   PACIFIC COAST PILOTAGE.
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Motion agreed to, and the House went into committee on the Bill, Mr. Steele in the Chair. On section 1-Exempted ships:


UNI L

William Stevens Fielding

Unionist (Liberal)

Mr. FIELDING:

Would it not meet the minister's purpose if he struck out the words "or ports' in the ninth line so that the clause would read: "Ships registered in Canada employed in voyages between any port in the province of British Columbia, and the port of San Francisco, or any port of the United States of America on the Pacific," etc.? The intention is that it shall apply only to foreign trade, but as the clause reads it would imply interprovincial trade.

Topic:   PACIFIC COAST PILOTAGE.
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UNION

Alexander Kenneth Maclean (Minister Without Portfolio)

Unionist

Mr. MACLEAN:

I agree with the hon.

gentleman, and therefore move that the words, " or ports ", in the ninth line be struck out.

Topic:   PACIFIC COAST PILOTAGE.
Permalink

Motion agreed to. '


L LIB

James Alexander Robb (Chief Government Whip)

Laurier Liberal

Mr. ROBB:

Will the minister explain

why vessels registered in Canada should be exempted from pilotage dues while the same privilege is not accorded to vessels registered in the United States? A vessel plying daily between Seattle and Vancouver and calling at Victoria, if registered in the United States, will be subject to pilotage dues, but will be exempt if registered in Canada. If it is proper to protect the lives of passengers on United States boats by providing pilotage, is there any reason why the same protection should not be afforded passengers on Canadian ships? The crew might be Canadians on both boats. The minister might clear that point uip.

Topic:   PACIFIC COAST PILOTAGE.
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UNION

Henry Herbert Stevens

Unionist

Mr. STEVENS:

On the Pacific Coast, as in other local waters, we have ferries making daily trips, and the captains of these boats are excellent and most expert navigators in local waters. They never use a pilot, but under present regulations they have to pay pilotage dues, and this Bill empowers the pilotage authorities to relieve these ships of dues. The masters of passenger boats are highly qualified men and are expert in the navigation of the waters in which they daily travel, so that my hon. friend need have no apprehension in that regard.

Topic:   PACIFIC COAST PILOTAGE.
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L LIB

James Alexander Robb (Chief Government Whip)

Laurier Liberal

Mr. ROBB:

Some of these boats are

owned in Seattle and registered in the United States and some are registered in Canada. Why the difference?

Topic:   PACIFIC COAST PILOTAGE.
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UNION

Alexander Kenneth Maclean (Minister Without Portfolio)

Unionist

Mr. A. K. MACLEAN:

The hon. gentleman's question has reference to a matter ether than that which it is intended to be dealt with in this Bill. Under the law as it now stands, the department by regulation can determine what pilotage American shipping shall pay in British Columbia waters, and the Department of Justice has so advised it. If we desired to relieve American shipping altogether of pilotage we would require further legislation. The department, however, does not desire to do this, but under the statute they are empowered to reduce to a minimum the pilotage rates on American shipping, and it is their intention td do so. I am informed that this is satisfactory to American shipping.

Topic:   PACIFIC COAST PILOTAGE.
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L LIB

Daniel Duncan McKenzie

Laurier Liberal

Mr. McKENZIE:

Will the Minister or

the hon. member (Mr. Stevens) tell us something about the pilotage system on the Pacific coast? I suppose they have more than one body of pilots. Are they paid by fixed salary or do they get their income by collecting pilotage dues from the different ships?

Topic:   PACIFIC COAST PILOTAGE.
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UNION

Henry Herbert Stevens

Unionist

Mr. STEVENS:

Up to a year ago the

pilotage in British Columbia waters was under two or three pilotage commissions, and the pilots were paid out of the fees

collected from the ships, and not by any fixed salary. The former Minister of Marine, Mr. Hazen, appointed, a commission, and some eminent authorities on pilotage went t'o British Columbia and made careful investigation and recommended that some system of pilotage should be inaugurated such as existed on the St. Lawrence and has recently been put into operation at Halifax.

This Bill is really giving effect to that part of the recommendation and of this new system which has been put into operation during the past few months. Pilotage will now be placed on a salary basis. The desire is to reduce pilotage which I always considered excessive, as I think many others do. We anticipate that it will be a benefit to shipping as well as to the pilots themselves.

Topic:   PACIFIC COAST PILOTAGE.
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L LIB

Daniel Duncan McKenzie

Laurier Liberal

Mr. McKENZIE:

I remember the Bill that my hon. friend refers to very well. It was before this House at a late stage of the last session. I remember discussing it with the minister at the time. I am pretty sure that it does not provide for salaries for the pilots on the Pacific coast. It fixes pilotage salaries on the St. Lawrence, and I think it has something to do with pilotage on the Atlantic coast at ports such as St. John, Halifax and Sydney. But it has not yet gone into operation. I remember telling the minister that he would find a good deal of trouble because all pilots whose salaries were not fixed would be looking for their fixation. The hon. member for Vancouver (Mr. Stevens) will find there is no provision made for fixing the salaries of pilots on the Pacific coast in so far as any legislation of this House isi concerned. For that reason, although I have no request from, the pilots on the Pacific coast, I would be very sorry to cut down the little income-or whatever it may be, big or little-that the pilots on the Pacific coast are receiving.

Topic:   PACIFIC COAST PILOTAGE.
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November 8, 1919