November 8, 1919

UNION

Arthur Meighen (Minister of the Interior; Superintendent-General of Indian Affairs)

Unionist

Mr. MEIGHEN:

This amendment, in my opinion, does not alter the intention of the Act in respect of the subject matter to be valued, namely, the stocks. I would be very sorry if it had the effect that the hon. gentleman desires-that the arbitrators should value the physical assets. A valuation based on physical assets to-day would, I am afraid, place the Government under a much greater obligation than that to which it can be possibly be made subject under this Bill. I have answered the question so far as my opinion goes; I do not think I am justified in saying anything further.

Topic:   GRAND TRUNK RAILWAY.
Subtopic:   CONSIDERATION OP AMENDMENTS MADE BY THE SENATE TO BILL FOR THE ACQUISITION OP THE SYSTEM BY THE GOVERNMENT.
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LIB

William Lyon Mackenzie King (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Liberal

Mr. MACKENZIE KING:

The minister rather intimates that my remarks had reference to the physical assets in the properties as they are to-day. When I spoke during the debate I said that I thought great care ought to be taken in laying down the grounds on which the arbitration should proceed and pointed out that there was a great difference between a valuation of the properties at the present time, with the cost of labour and material as it is, and a valuation of the properties as of the time that they were constructed.

Topic:   GRAND TRUNK RAILWAY.
Subtopic:   CONSIDERATION OP AMENDMENTS MADE BY THE SENATE TO BILL FOR THE ACQUISITION OP THE SYSTEM BY THE GOVERNMENT.
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UNION

Arthur Meighen (Minister of the Interior; Superintendent-General of Indian Affairs)

Unionist

Mr. MEIGHEN:

Even then it would

be far too high.

Topic:   GRAND TRUNK RAILWAY.
Subtopic:   CONSIDERATION OP AMENDMENTS MADE BY THE SENATE TO BILL FOR THE ACQUISITION OP THE SYSTEM BY THE GOVERNMENT.
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LIB

William Lyon Mackenzie King (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Liberal

Mr. MACKENZIE KING:

My point is

that the stocks are not really a proper basis for valuation-a proper basis for the arbitrators to proceed upon. The only sound basis is that which has regard to the property that the country is getting. The stocks may represent it or they may not. If they represent it, well and good, if they do not, surely it is the part of wisdom to see that any award which is made has reference to actual values in property.

TMr. Cahill.]

Topic:   GRAND TRUNK RAILWAY.
Subtopic:   CONSIDERATION OP AMENDMENTS MADE BY THE SENATE TO BILL FOR THE ACQUISITION OP THE SYSTEM BY THE GOVERNMENT.
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L LIB

Daniel Duncan McKenzie

Laurier Liberal

Mr. D. D. McKENZIE:

I have very

grave doubts whether the House should concur in this amendment, which fixes or invites a fixation of the award at a certain amount. I think it goes far too high. During the course of the debate it was held out to us and repeated over and over again that the arbitrators might find no value at all.

The Minister of the Interior (Mr. Meighen) and the Minister of Railways (Mr. J. D. Reid) said that they did not know what the amount of the award might be; in fact, it was suggested to members of the House that the arbitrators might find that there was no value at all, and that what we were undertaking, directly and indirectly, besides the result of the arbitration, might be ample and sufficient to pay for anything that we are getting. By concurring in this amendment we are inviting the arbitrators to decide that there shall be an award of $62,500,000, and it seems to me that whatever the arbitrators may do, we are not justified in saying that they are doing right if they bring in an award of that kind. Personally, I cannot be a party to concurring in the suggestion that the arbitrators would be justified and that we say that they would be justified in bringing an award involving such an immense amount of money. I do not know that recrimination is any good or that comparisons should be made; but I say to the Government and to hon. gentlemen opposite that if we reached the conclusion that we did yesterday by such a huge majority in this House, namely, that we had not a dollar to spend to gladden the hearts and comfort the homes of our returned soldiers, and refused simply on that account to do anything beyond what we are doing along those lines, it is an extraordinary thing that the next morning we should come to this House and say that as far as we are concerned we should give away for this railroad, which is certainly not a paying proposition, $62,500,000 in addition to the hundreds of millions of dollars which we are obliging ourselves to pay.

Topic:   GRAND TRUNK RAILWAY.
Subtopic:   CONSIDERATION OP AMENDMENTS MADE BY THE SENATE TO BILL FOR THE ACQUISITION OP THE SYSTEM BY THE GOVERNMENT.
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UNI L

William Stevens Fielding

Unionist (Liberal)

Mr. FIELDING:

Might I suggest to the minister that he divide his motion? There are two amendments, and some of us may be willing to concur in one and not in the other. For myself I desire earnestly to protest against the first amendment regarding the limitation. The second amendment deals with another subject, and I think it would be well to separate the amendments and take them each in order as we take up clauses of a Bill.

Topic:   GRAND TRUNK RAILWAY.
Subtopic:   CONSIDERATION OP AMENDMENTS MADE BY THE SENATE TO BILL FOR THE ACQUISITION OP THE SYSTEM BY THE GOVERNMENT.
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UNION

Arthur Meighen (Minister of the Interior; Superintendent-General of Indian Affairs)

Unionist

Mr. MEIGHEN:

I do not think that ia the usual method. As the Government has decided to accept the amendments made by the Senate, our duty is to move conr currence. If the hon. gentleman so desires, I presume an amendment may be made and voted upon by the House.

Topic:   GRAND TRUNK RAILWAY.
Subtopic:   CONSIDERATION OP AMENDMENTS MADE BY THE SENATE TO BILL FOR THE ACQUISITION OP THE SYSTEM BY THE GOVERNMENT.
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UNI L

William Stevens Fielding

Unionist (Liberal)

Mr. FIELDING:

It is a very common practice for a minister in charge of a Bill to move that one amendment amongst two, or three, or four, be concurred in; in fact, we ought to have them explained and concurred in separately.

Topic:   GRAND TRUNK RAILWAY.
Subtopic:   CONSIDERATION OP AMENDMENTS MADE BY THE SENATE TO BILL FOR THE ACQUISITION OP THE SYSTEM BY THE GOVERNMENT.
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UNION

Arthur Meighen (Minister of the Interior; Superintendent-General of Indian Affairs)

Unionist

Mr. MEIGHEN:

That is done where the Government intends to accept only certain amendments, but not where the Government desires to accept them all.

Topic:   GRAND TRUNK RAILWAY.
Subtopic:   CONSIDERATION OP AMENDMENTS MADE BY THE SENATE TO BILL FOR THE ACQUISITION OP THE SYSTEM BY THE GOVERNMENT.
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UNI L

William Stevens Fielding

Unionist (Liberal)

Mr. FIELDING:

Surely the House should deal with each one separately.

Topic:   GRAND TRUNK RAILWAY.
Subtopic:   CONSIDERATION OP AMENDMENTS MADE BY THE SENATE TO BILL FOR THE ACQUISITION OP THE SYSTEM BY THE GOVERNMENT.
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UNION

John Archibald Campbell

Unionist

Mr. CAMPBELL :

I am satisfied that the consensus of opinion of the House is strongly against the first proposed amendment. A few days ago I moved in this House that all the stocks should be placed before the Arbitration Board. I did so, as I said then, because I was firmly of the opinion that-I was going to say that there was no value in the preferred and common stocks-perhaps I might better say that the total value of the guaranteed, preferred and common stocks was somewhat less than $60,000,000, how much less I do not know. This amendment, everybody seems to be agreed, will have the effect of our stating that in the opinion of this House the total amount of the value of these stocks may be considered as being worth considerably more than $60,000,000, and I think it is wrong to give out any such impression. I am strongly opposed to that particular amendment.

Topic:   GRAND TRUNK RAILWAY.
Subtopic:   CONSIDERATION OP AMENDMENTS MADE BY THE SENATE TO BILL FOR THE ACQUISITION OP THE SYSTEM BY THE GOVERNMENT.
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UNI L

William Stevens Fielding

Unionist (Liberal)

Mr. FIELDING:

Will the minister not act upon my suggestion that we have an opportunity to vote upon these amendments separately? Surely the opinion of the House is not to be overruled in this -way.

Topic:   GRAND TRUNK RAILWAY.
Subtopic:   CONSIDERATION OP AMENDMENTS MADE BY THE SENATE TO BILL FOR THE ACQUISITION OP THE SYSTEM BY THE GOVERNMENT.
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UNION

Arthur Meighen (Minister of the Interior; Superintendent-General of Indian Affairs)

Unionist

Mr. MEIGHEN:

I am not objecting to an amendment being moved 'to the motion, but the proper procedure is that the Government should express its own opinion, which is as expressed in the motion. A separate vote would be obtained if a motion were made amending this, saying that the amendment made by the Senate to clause 6 be not accepted, or that the amendments made by the Senate be accepted with the exception of that to clause 6. The fact is not that I

wish to stand in the way of the House expressing its exact opinion, but the method followed by the Government is the usual method of procedure.

Topic:   GRAND TRUNK RAILWAY.
Subtopic:   CONSIDERATION OP AMENDMENTS MADE BY THE SENATE TO BILL FOR THE ACQUISITION OP THE SYSTEM BY THE GOVERNMENT.
Permalink
UNI L

William Stevens Fielding

Unionist (Liberal)

Mr. FIELDING:

I think that we should consider the Senate amendments clause by clause, as we do in regard to any other matters that come before us.

Topic:   GRAND TRUNK RAILWAY.
Subtopic:   CONSIDERATION OP AMENDMENTS MADE BY THE SENATE TO BILL FOR THE ACQUISITION OP THE SYSTEM BY THE GOVERNMENT.
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?

Some hon. MEMBERS:

Question.

Topic:   GRAND TRUNK RAILWAY.
Subtopic:   CONSIDERATION OP AMENDMENTS MADE BY THE SENATE TO BILL FOR THE ACQUISITION OP THE SYSTEM BY THE GOVERNMENT.
Permalink
UNION

Edgar Nelson Rhodes (Speaker of the House of Commons)

Unionist

Mr. SPEAKER:

Is the House ready for the question?

Topic:   GRAND TRUNK RAILWAY.
Subtopic:   CONSIDERATION OP AMENDMENTS MADE BY THE SENATE TO BILL FOR THE ACQUISITION OP THE SYSTEM BY THE GOVERNMENT.
Permalink
LIB

William Lyon Mackenzie King (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Liberal

Mr. MACKENZIE KING:

Mr. Speaker-

Topic:   GRAND TRUNK RAILWAY.
Subtopic:   CONSIDERATION OP AMENDMENTS MADE BY THE SENATE TO BILL FOR THE ACQUISITION OP THE SYSTEM BY THE GOVERNMENT.
Permalink
UNION

Edgar Nelson Rhodes (Speaker of the House of Commons)

Unionist

Mr. SPEAKER:

The hon. member must have the unanimous consent of the House if he desires to make another speech, as he has already exhausted his right to speak.

Mr. MACKENZIE K^NG: I wish to move an amendment.

Topic:   GRAND TRUNK RAILWAY.
Subtopic:   CONSIDERATION OP AMENDMENTS MADE BY THE SENATE TO BILL FOR THE ACQUISITION OP THE SYSTEM BY THE GOVERNMENT.
Permalink
UNION

Edgar Nelson Rhodes (Speaker of the House of Commons)

Unionist

Mr. SPEAKER:

The hon. member cannot move an amendment, as he has exhausted his right to speak. If the hon. member is prepared to ask for the unanimous consent of the House, I am ready to put that question to the House. Is the House ready for the question?

Topic:   GRAND TRUNK RAILWAY.
Subtopic:   CONSIDERATION OP AMENDMENTS MADE BY THE SENATE TO BILL FOR THE ACQUISITION OP THE SYSTEM BY THE GOVERNMENT.
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?

Some hon. MEMBERS:

Question.

The House divided on the motion of Mr. Meighen for concurrence in the Senate amendments, which was agreed to on the following division.

Messrs.

Anderson, Mclsaac,

Argue, McQuarrie,

Ball, Marshall,

Blair, MartJin,

Bolton, Meighen,

Boyce, Morphy,

Buchanan, Munson,

Burrell, Nesbitt,

Calder, Porter,

Charters, Reid (Grenville),

Clements, Richardson,

Cockshutt, Shaw,

Cooper, Sheard,

Cowan, Simpson,

Cruise, Smith,

Davidson, Steele,

Finley, Stevens,

Foster (Sir George), Stewart (Hamilton),

Griesbach, Sutherland,

Guthrie, Thompson (Weyburn),

Halladay, Thompson (Hastings),

Harrison, Thompson (Yukon),

Hay, Thomson (Qu'Appelle),

Henders, Wallace,

Hepburn, Whidden,

Hocken, Mackie (Edmonton), Wigmore,

Wilson (Saskatoon),

Maclean (Halifax), MacNutt, Wright.-57.

Baldwin,

Burnham,

Cahill,

Campbell, d'Anjou,

Davis,

D6ch6ne,

Devlin,

Fafard,

Fielding,

Fortier,

Johnston,

Kay,

Kennedy (Glengarry and Stormont),

Messrs.

King,

Knox,

Lapointe

(Quebec East) Leger,

McKenzie, Maharg,

Marcile (Bagot), Michaud,

Molloy,

Papineau,

Pardee,

Pelletier,

Savard,

Turgeon.-28.

Fulton, Proulx,

Glass, Seguin,

Harold, Totfin,

Hartt, Trahan,

Keefer, . Truax,

Lalor, Vlen.

Topic:   GRAND TRUNK RAILWAY.
Subtopic:   CONSIDERATION OP AMENDMENTS MADE BY THE SENATE TO BILL FOR THE ACQUISITION OP THE SYSTEM BY THE GOVERNMENT.
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November 8, 1919