November 5, 1919

L LIB

Charles Murphy

Laurier Liberal

Mr. MURPHY:

How is it that there is such a marked increase between March and August?

Topic:   COMMITTEE ON SOLDIERS' CIVIL RE-ESTABLISHMENT.
Subtopic:   MOTION FOR CONCURRENCE IN REPORT OF THE SPECIAL COMMITTEE.
Permalink
UNION

James Alexander Calder (Minister of Immigration and Colonization)

Unionist

Mr. CALDER:

I do not understand the question.

Topic:   COMMITTEE ON SOLDIERS' CIVIL RE-ESTABLISHMENT.
Subtopic:   MOTION FOR CONCURRENCE IN REPORT OF THE SPECIAL COMMITTEE.
Permalink
L LIB

Charles Murphy

Laurier Liberal

Mr. MURPHY:

The payment down to the end of March is $20,500,000 and to the end of August, $83,000,000.

Topic:   COMMITTEE ON SOLDIERS' CIVIL RE-ESTABLISHMENT.
Subtopic:   MOTION FOR CONCURRENCE IN REPORT OF THE SPECIAL COMMITTEE.
Permalink
UNION

James Alexander Calder (Minister of Immigration and Colonization)

Unionist

Mr. CALDER:

The gratuity was, if I remember rightly, provided for some time in December. It took a little time to get the machinery in motion, and the applications did not come in for a while so that one or two or maybe three months would elapse before there would be a volume of business, and consequently the large expenditure comes in the period from the first of April to the end of August.

Topic:   COMMITTEE ON SOLDIERS' CIVIL RE-ESTABLISHMENT.
Subtopic:   MOTION FOR CONCURRENCE IN REPORT OF THE SPECIAL COMMITTEE.
Permalink
L LIB

Charles Murphy

Laurier Liberal

Mr. MURPHY:

The expenditure increases proportionately.

Topic:   COMMITTEE ON SOLDIERS' CIVIL RE-ESTABLISHMENT.
Subtopic:   MOTION FOR CONCURRENCE IN REPORT OF THE SPECIAL COMMITTEE.
Permalink
UNION

Edward Walter Nesbitt

Unionist

Mr. NESBITT:

More men would be discharged.

Topic:   COMMITTEE ON SOLDIERS' CIVIL RE-ESTABLISHMENT.
Subtopic:   MOTION FOR CONCURRENCE IN REPORT OF THE SPECIAL COMMITTEE.
Permalink
UNION

James Alexander Calder (Minister of Immigration and Colonization)

Unionist

Mr. CALDER:

Yes, demobilization was proceeding, and men were not entitled to gratuities until after they were demobilized.

We come now to the third class of work carried on, that is, the return of dependents. I need not go over the details of the expenditure, but it is estimated that the total amount required to the end of the fiscal year to return the dependents of soldiers, that is, their wives and children who are in Great Britain or on the continent of Europe, without provision being made for those who returned prior to the armistice, provision only being made for those who returned after the armistice, is approximately $1,900,000.

Then we come to the Department of Soldiers' Civil Re-establishment, a department that was created mainly for the purpose of looking after disabled soldiers. We find that the expenditure of that department down to the end of the last fiscal year, including the operations of the old Military Hospitals Commission, totalled approximately $24,600,000; that the expenditures to the end of July of this fiscal year totalled $8,700,000, and that there will be expended during the balance of this fiscal year $23,000,000, or a total expenditure for that department from the beginning down to he end of the present fiscal year of approximately $57,000,000.

Topic:   COMMITTEE ON SOLDIERS' CIVIL RE-ESTABLISHMENT.
Subtopic:   MOTION FOR CONCURRENCE IN REPORT OF THE SPECIAL COMMITTEE.
Permalink
UNION

John Allister Currie

Unionist

Mr. CURRIE:

Does that figure include the military pay of the men who are in those hospitals? If they were not in the hospitals belonging to the commission and they were in military hospitals and were not discharged, they would be entitled to military pay. They are turned over to this commission, and their military pay goes on. Is that military pay included in the figure? Is that what swells it?

Topic:   COMMITTEE ON SOLDIERS' CIVIL RE-ESTABLISHMENT.
Subtopic:   MOTION FOR CONCURRENCE IN REPORT OF THE SPECIAL COMMITTEE.
Permalink
UNION

James Alexander Calder (Minister of Immigration and Colonization)

Unionist

Mr. CALDER:

I would not think so. If there are in the forces any men not discharged who are in any way taken care of by the Department of the Soldiers' Civil Re-establishment, I would think that their pay and allowances would come from the Militia Department and not from this department.

As regards the work of the Soldiers' Settlement Board, the expenditures to date will be found at the bottom of page 35. The figures for the first two years are not separated; the expenditure for this work from the beginning down to August 31 of this year amounts to $15,136,000, and it is estimated that there will be required to carry on this work for the balance of the present fiscal year a further $33,000,000, making a total expenditure from the beginning down to the end of the present fiscal year of $48,228,000.

Topic:   COMMITTEE ON SOLDIERS' CIVIL RE-ESTABLISHMENT.
Subtopic:   MOTION FOR CONCURRENCE IN REPORT OF THE SPECIAL COMMITTEE.
Permalink
UNION

John Allister Currie

Unionist

Mr. CURRIE:

Is not most of that expenditure an asset?

Topic:   COMMITTEE ON SOLDIERS' CIVIL RE-ESTABLISHMENT.
Subtopic:   MOTION FOR CONCURRENCE IN REPORT OF THE SPECIAL COMMITTEE.
Permalink
UNION

James Alexander Calder (Minister of Immigration and Colonization)

Unionist

Mr. CALDER:

Yes.

Topic:   COMMITTEE ON SOLDIERS' CIVIL RE-ESTABLISHMENT.
Subtopic:   MOTION FOR CONCURRENCE IN REPORT OF THE SPECIAL COMMITTEE.
Permalink
UNION

John Allister Currie

Unionist

Mr. CURRIE:

Then why make it a

charge?

Topic:   COMMITTEE ON SOLDIERS' CIVIL RE-ESTABLISHMENT.
Subtopic:   MOTION FOR CONCURRENCE IN REPORT OF THE SPECIAL COMMITTEE.
Permalink
UNION

James Alexander Calder (Minister of Immigration and Colonization)

Unionist

Mr. CALDER:

I will deal with that a little later on; I am not going to overlook that point.

A certain amount of work is carried on by the Labour Department, and the total expenditure in carrying on these Dominion-Provincial Bureaus will be $388,311.31 to the

end ol the present fiscal year. During the course of the inquiry we obtained evidence as to the number of returned men who were thus placed in employment, and it was found that they represented 40 per cent of the total. As a consequence, we have charged up here for re-establishment work only 40 per cent of the expenditure of the Labour Department in connection with securing employment.

It will be noted that a summary appears in the report of all these various classes of expenditure, the total being placed at over $314,000,000 to the end of the present fiscal year.

Your committee then endeavoured to get an estimate of what the cost would be to carry on the work as now undertaken to completion. There are certain kinds of work being carried on to which the ,country and Parliament are committed, and we endeavoured to ascertain what it would cost to complete that work. That will be found at the bottom of page 36. We have not carried out into the column the annual amount for pensions because that is a continuing amount that must he paid every year. As regards past gratuities, the estimate previously given is regarded as being sufficient to cover the cost in that regard, and the same is true of the transportation expenses of dependents.

Topic:   COMMITTEE ON SOLDIERS' CIVIL RE-ESTABLISHMENT.
Subtopic:   MOTION FOR CONCURRENCE IN REPORT OF THE SPECIAL COMMITTEE.
Permalink
UNION

John Allister Currie

Unionist

Mr. CURRIE:

How much is estimated for gratuities?

Topic:   COMMITTEE ON SOLDIERS' CIVIL RE-ESTABLISHMENT.
Subtopic:   MOTION FOR CONCURRENCE IN REPORT OF THE SPECIAL COMMITTEE.
Permalink
UNION

James Alexander Calder (Minister of Immigration and Colonization)

Unionist

Mr. CALDER:

The total is $153,000,000, and it is estimated that that amount will cover whatever expenditures are necessary in regard to those gratuities. In reference to soldiers' settlement, as members of the House can readily understand, we had difficulty in arriving at any accurate estimate. All we know is that the work is being carried on in a large way; that the amounts of money required are growing by. leaps and bounds, and from the evidence submitted by the officers of the department, while the total expenditure that it is estimated will be necessary to the end of the present fiscal year is $48,000,000, it is estimated that after this fiscal year it will take in round figures another $101,000,000 to carry on to completion the work that is now being done for ex-members of the Canadian forces.

In addition to that, Parliament is committed to providing assistance of a somewhat similar character for ex-members of the Imperial forces. Provision for that has been made in the Bill; regulations have been passed; already an organization is being established in the Old Country, and

before very long we may expect to have members of the Imperial forces, British citizens, coming to Canada for settlement purposes. We have estimated for that work some $25,000,000.

As regards the future work of the Department of Soldiers' Civil Re-establishment, I think the estimate given in the report is a moderate, conservative one, namely, $50,000,000; that is, in future years, to take care of the disabled men and men who are in institutions at the present time, many of whom will continue in institutions for years to come; to take care of another class of cases, that is, casek which are being taken care of now, such as the problem case, the neurological case, the mentally subnormal case. I regret to believe that there will be large expenditures in that connection. It is estimated that the Labour Department will have a further expenditure not exceeding $200,000.

Summing up future expenditures, that is, expenditures beyond this fiscal year, we find that the amount is placed at $176,971,896.88; or a grand total for all the work done in the past and the work that must be done in the future as far as present commitments are concerned, of $491,540,623.50.

Topic:   COMMITTEE ON SOLDIERS' CIVIL RE-ESTABLISHMENT.
Subtopic:   MOTION FOR CONCURRENCE IN REPORT OF THE SPECIAL COMMITTEE.
Permalink
CON

George Green Foster

Conservative (1867-1942)

Sir GEORGE FOSTER:

Not including

pensions?

Topic:   COMMITTEE ON SOLDIERS' CIVIL RE-ESTABLISHMENT.
Subtopic:   MOTION FOR CONCURRENCE IN REPORT OF THE SPECIAL COMMITTEE.
Permalink
UNION

James Alexander Calder (Minister of Immigration and Colonization)

Unionist

Mr. CALDER:

Not including future pensions. Now I come to the question raised by piy hon. friend from Simcoe (Mr. Currie). That $491,000,000 includes what has already been expended on pensions, or will be expended to the end of this year-some $53,000,000. It also includes the estimated expenditure for land settlement. If these two items are deducted-the amount for land settlement is only a loan and in course of time the money will come back- it will be found that the total amount expended on re-establishment work is in the neighbourhood of $263,000,000.

Topic:   COMMITTEE ON SOLDIERS' CIVIL RE-ESTABLISHMENT.
Subtopic:   MOTION FOR CONCURRENCE IN REPORT OF THE SPECIAL COMMITTEE.
Permalink
CON

George Green Foster

Conservative (1867-1942)

Sir GEORGE FOSTER:

Where do you get the $263,000,000?

Topic:   COMMITTEE ON SOLDIERS' CIVIL RE-ESTABLISHMENT.
Subtopic:   MOTION FOR CONCURRENCE IN REPORT OF THE SPECIAL COMMITTEE.
Permalink
UNION

James Alexander Calder (Minister of Immigration and Colonization)

Unionist

Mr. CALDER:

If you deduct from $491,000,000 the amount provided for land settlement, $175,000,000, and the $53,000,000 provided for pensions you get a balance of $263,000,000, roughly speaking.

Now I come to the really important part of our report, our findings or recommendations, which after all is what the House and the people of this country, and the returned men more particularly, are interested in. I need scarcely say this was not a very easy task. On the contrary, it was a

most difficult task. We had hours upon hours of almost interminable discussion. There were naturally differences of opinion* as to details, as there will be in this House, but as regards the broad principles underlying our findings there was practically unanimity, and so far as the main finding is concerned; that in view of the financial condition of the country no further provision should be made by Parliament for a general distribution of cash gratuities, the committee was unanimous.

Our findings will be found beginning on page 38 under the heading " A.-General." The findings are grouped for convenience according to the nature of the problem under consideration, under headings from A to J.

The first relates to the general problem of re-establishment as it faced the country after the war had been going on for some time, and when our men were beginning to come back. As every hon. member knows, this problem was an entirely new one for this country. We had little in the way of precedent to guide us, and no trained experts. Those who took charge of this work had to gain their knowledge very largely through experience. The problem undoubtedly was a difficult one, but it had to be tackled, and I believe the best has been done under the circumstances. Let me give an illustration. Canada was absolutely unprepared to deal with the problem of vocational training, for instance. It is quite true we had some technical schools throughout the country for children and young men, but when the disabled soldiers, .grown-up men, began to come back by the hundreds and the thousands they had to be re-trained, and the necessary machinery for carrying on that work had to be established. It was not an easy task, and in my opinion it ,is marvellous that the department has done so well as it has. I go further and say that I do not think any other belligerent country in the world has tackled the problem as effectively and got as good results as Canada has. As pointed out in the report, and as everybody knows, mistakes have been made, and there have been weaknesses and defects, but these have been remedied as far as possible from time to time. I think I can say truthfully, and I am sure every member of the committee will bear me out, that our examination of what is being done in the way of vocational training was -very satisfactory. The condition of affairs we found was a revelation to some of us, and a revelation, I think, to the people of this country who TMr. Calder ]

followed the evidence. I think it was a revelation to many of the returned men themselves, who did not know or clearly understand the character of some of the work that is being carried on.

The second section of this part of our findings relates to the attitude of our people generally and of Parliament and the Government towards the question of reestablishment. I need not dwell upon that. I think the facts and figures I have already given to the House are an indication of what the spirit of our people and of Parliament has been. We have provided pensions that are higher than those provided by any other belligerent country in the world, so far as we are able to ascertain.

Topic:   COMMITTEE ON SOLDIERS' CIVIL RE-ESTABLISHMENT.
Subtopic:   MOTION FOR CONCURRENCE IN REPORT OF THE SPECIAL COMMITTEE.
Permalink
UNION

John Allister Currie

Unionist

Mr. CURRIE:

Is it not a fact that the British pensions are very close to ours, the only difference being that we have a different classification and camouflage the soldier so that he thinks he is getting a higher pension?

Topic:   COMMITTEE ON SOLDIERS' CIVIL RE-ESTABLISHMENT.
Subtopic:   MOTION FOR CONCURRENCE IN REPORT OF THE SPECIAL COMMITTEE.
Permalink

November 5, 1919