July 3, 1919

THE LATE LIEUT.-COLONEL GEORGE HAROLD BAKER, M.P.

REPORT OP SPECIAL, MEMORIAL COMMITTEE ADOPTED.


Sir HERBERT AMES (St. Antoine), presented the report from the Special Committee of this House appointed to confer and act with the committee of the Senate and House of Commons who have in charge the building and arrangement of the new Parliament Building, in order that there may be erected therein a suitable memorial to the late Lieut.-Colonel George Harold Baker, M.P., for Brome, presented their first report as follows: Your Committee have had several meetings with a like Committee of the Senate, and have conferred with the Committee of Parliament who have in charge the arrangement of the new Parliament Building, and also with the Architect, Mr. John A. Pearson, and now beg to recommend:- 1. That a memorial to the late Lieutenant-Colonel Baker, M.P., in the form of a bas-relief or tablet, be placed' in the alcove to the right of the stairway in the House of Commons entrance. 2. That pending a definite decision of your Committee and of the. Committee of the House of Commons, as to the form of the memorial and the inscription to be placed thereon, the location selected by your Committee be reserved for the said memorial. On motion of Sir Herbert Ames, the recommendation contained in the special report of the Baker Memorial Committee was concurred in.


SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATES FOR 1919-20.


A message from His Excellency the Governor General transmitting Supplementary Estimates for the year ending March 31, 1920, wais presented by Sir Thomas White (Minister of Finance), read by Mr. Speaker to the House, and referred to the Committee of Supply.


UNION

William Thomas White (Minister of Finance and Receiver General)

Unionist

Sir THOMAS WHITE:

I beg to state, in connection with the Supplementary Estimates which have just been presented, that there will be a further Estimate, probably to-morrow, dealing with the matter of salaries of civil servants.

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BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.

UNION

Arthur Meighen (Minister of the Interior; Superintendent-General of Indian Affairs)

Unionist

Hon. ARTHUR MEIGHEN (Minister of the Interior):

With respect to numbers 15 and 16 of Government Orders, I move that rule -50 of the House be suspended with re-

lation thereto in order that these Bills may be gone on with without resolution. The Bills as amended will contain no proviso that, under the law aside from the rules of this House, requires a resolution, but inasmuch as they affect trade and commerce, by rule 50 a resolution is required. In order that time may be saved and that we may proceed with the'consideration of these Bills on the call of Government Orders today, it is necessary that rule 50 be suspended in relation thereto.

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UNION

Edgar Nelson Rhodes (Speaker of the House of Commons)

Unionist

Mr. SPEAKER:

This motion requires, of course, unanimous consent.

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Motion agreed to.


JOINT COMMITTEE ON PRINTING.


On motion of Mr. John A. Currie (Simcoe North), the recommendation contained in the third report of the joint committee on printing was concurred in.


COMMITTEE ON SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH.

UNION

Hume Cronyn

Unionist

Mr. HUME CRONYN (London) moved:

That the recommendation contained in the second report of the special committee appointed to consider the matter of the development in Canada of scientific research be concurred in.

He said: In moving concurrence in this report, I desire to make a few remarks upon a subject which, in the opinion of the committee, is a very vital factor in the future welfare and progress of Canada. I am well aware that, at this stage of a lengthy and protracted session, the members will not suffer gladly any extended oration, so that I shall endeavour to compress my remarks into the briefest possible compass. Indeed, I do not pretend to attempt anything like an oration, and I should welcome questions from hon. members if the statements I make do not appear clear to them.

As the report has already been read to the House, it is unnecessary to again repeat it on this occasion. It expresses the unanimous belief of the committee that federal aid to scientific research in Canada should be forthcoming, and that we are bound to take action along this line if we desire our country to maintain its place among other nations of the world, that place won for us by the gallantry of our men overseas.

The report further recommends for the consideration of the Government the establishment of a bureau of standards similar to that bureau which has been in existence in the United States for nearly twenty years past. Later on, I shall hope to give some explanation of the functions of such a bureau, in order that the recommendation of the committee in this respect may be appreciated.

While the committee was urgent in its belief of the importance of scientific research and the need of Dominion assistance thereto, no conclusion was reached as to the best method of affording the necessary support, and the reasons for failing to reach a conclusion are stated in the report. The report therefore goes on to recommend the re-appointment of a similar committee at the next session, when it is hoped that with the material already gathered, extensive as it is, and with such other evidence as the new committee may see fit to consider a definite decision may be reached for the consideration of this House and the Government.

In view of this report, and recalling, as some hon. members will, the inspiring address which Professor McLennan, that noted Canadian scientist, and now advisor to the British Admiralty, delivered in this Chamber a few weeks ago, it seems futile [DOT] for me to attempt to make any general -statement on the importance of scientific research, but I feel I should do so, and I would urge as patient a hearing as can he given on a day such as this to what will be brief and to the point.

(Science is the instrument which more than any other has enabled man in his never ending struggle with nature to force that stern mother to disclose and yield up a larger share of her bounties. We admire the patient progress of our progenitors; we are the heirs of all the ages, and thus the beneficiaries of discoveries so hardly won, but we now recognize that the ancient, tedious and wasteful principle of "Trial and error" must be eliminated, and, that trained scientific reasoning be substituted for the empiricism of earlier epochs.

We have read and heard much of late regarding the importance to the state of what are termed "Key" industries. Is not science, which is the "Master Key" to the treasury vaults of the entire globe, at least of equal importance?

The history and.results of the war have brought to most of us a realization of the powers of science, and for that reason, if for no other, the feeling is general that the alliance between science and industry should be of the closest nature; and by industry I desire to include all the leading pursuits upon which Canada's prosperity

the Department of Mines and the Department of Agriculture, the amount of progress made in this direction 1s almost negligible. Nor should this condition be a matter of surprise. Outside of a-few corporations our industries are comparatively small and it would be impossible for them to establish and maintain on a useful scale the laboratories and staff required for the purpose. After careful inquiry we are told that less than two per cent of Canadian industries engage in industrial research, while only about ten per cent possess routine laboratories.

What have we done so far to remedy this state of affairs? I should like to be permitted, for the benefit of those members who, like myself, were not in the House when the move for scientific industrial research had its origin briefly to trace that movement from its inception down to the present time.

In the session of 1917 a measure was enacted under the title of " The Research Council Act." By its provisions an Honorary Advisory 'Council for Scientific and Industrial Research was authorized, consisting of not more than eleven members to be appointed on the recommendation of a sub-committee of the Privy Council. The duties of the Advisory Council were to have charge of all matters affecting scientific - and industrial research in Canada assigned to it by the sub-committee, and to advise such committee on questions of scientific and technical methods affecting the expansion of Canadian industries or which might aid in the development of the natural resources of Canada.

The Administrative Chairman of the Advisory Council was to be the only member to receive pay; the other members acting in a purely honorary capacity. The Council was enabled toy means of an annual appropriation granted by Parliament or from moneys otherwise received to expend such sums on the above work as might be approved by the sub-committee. The Act contains the usual clauses as to annual audit and reports to Parliament.

On the second reading of the Bill, the proposal met with the general approval of members on both sides of the House, including that of the right honourable the leader of the Opposition. If we except the time honoured objection to multiplicity of commissions, the only criticism raised was that the plan did not go far enough. The present member for -South Perth in speaking to the motion ended his remarks with what I hope may prove to be a prophetic utterance:

''I trust that in the near future we shall have in this country under the control of the Government a vast institute for industrial and scientific research. There is plenty of work for such an institute to do -work that would toe of vast advantage, not only to the manufacturing and industrial interests of the -country, but to the nation at large."

Under this Act an Advisory Council was formed, the present members being, Professor A. B. Macalluim, Administrative Chairman; Professor F. B. Adams, McGill University; Sir George Garneau, Quebec; Professor Goodwin, Queen's University; Robert Hobson, Hamilton; Professor A. S. Mackenzie of Dalhousie University; President W. C. Murray, of the University of Saskatchewan; R. A. Ross, Montreal; Professor R. F. Ruttan, McGill University; and Arthur Surveyer, Montreal.

The above council subsequently associated with itself honorary committees in chemistry, mining, -metallurgy, and Forestry, while an Advisory Committee in British Columbia was as well named. I -shall not delay the House to give the fifty odd names making up these committees; my assurance may be accepted that they comprise men eminent in their particular lines throughout Canada.

Since its formation, the council has held some 25 meetings, each meeting lasting from two to four days, while the associate committees have as1 well met to discuss the particular measures in which they are interested.

The work of the council is set forth in the reports of the chairman, one published last year and now available to members, and the other laid upon the table of the House a few days ago. I do, not enlarge further upon these reports, which speak for themeselves, but I do urge that the members should find time before the next session to peruse the same, and to consider the strong recommendations made therein, particularly those to be found between pagesi 22 and 28 of the report first mentioned.

I would .ask the House to .remember that .this Advisory Council has been in existence for something like two years, that it has covered the field in an exhaustive way, and that these recommendations are entitled to the most serious consideration.

I do not propose on this occasion to go into the vi-ews expressed and the evidence given as to the best method of -aiding scientific and industrial research in Canada. To do so, would be to -assume the duties of the committee, which I hope may be

appointed at the next session of Parliament. It might besides anticipate or perhaps prejudice the finding of that committee. I do, however, feel free in closing to reiterate in the strongest terms my belief in the importance of scientific research and the duty of the Dominion Government to contribute to its support. I am not identified with industrial life nor have the companies with which I am. connected investments in manufacturing concerns-I entered upon an inquiry into this subject with less knowledge regarding it 'than- is probably possessed by many other hon. members. I strove to consider it from an unprejudiced point of view, and to hold an open mind throughout the entire inquiry. If the testimony of one individual can be of any value, I wish to put myself on record as being convinced of the vital part which scientific research plays in modem civilization; no country can hope to make full use of its opportunities unless the add of science is invoked to the fullest extent. In Canada, more than in older and fully occupied countries, this need is imperative. We would discover how vast are our riches if we could but turn the searchlight of science upon our far-flung Dominion.

I am, Sir, as I have previously stated, an enthusiastic believer in the future of our country, and my prayer, therefore, is that not only may our outlook be broad and sane, but that we may possess the courage and pre-vision to boldly adopt any measure which will add to the national well being. I beg to move the adoption of the report.

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UNION
UNION

Robert Laird Borden (Prime Minister; Secretary of State for External Affairs)

Unionist

Sir ROBERT BORDEN:

Certainly.

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UNION

Samuel Hughes

Unionist

Sir SAM HUGHES:

I heartily endorse the line that has been laid down by the mover of this resolution. Years ago I proposed myself that some similar body should 'be formed at Ottawa, but from my experience I may add a word of caution with respect to the formation of the organization now proposed, and I will do it by giving a practical illustration. During the war it was my privilege to meet man after man who came to me with inventions, and in very many instances I sent the men over to the Mather Country to endeavour to get their ideas adopted and carried out. One of these persons, Mr. Fessenden, of Boston, is an old Canadian and a former Hamilton boy, coming from a city from which

a great many good things have come. He waited upon me with a device for detecting the presence of submarines, and submitted it for my opinion and the opinion of some of the burning and .shining lights of the department at that time. On the same occasion he also showed me how he could locate enemy batteries. I sent him over to the United Kingdom and it took him three years to get that invention adopted by Britain. Italy took the invention up and France also, but Britain delayed doing so until 1917. It was not until Lord Moulton interested himself in the matter over there that anything was done. Fessenden was treated as an outlaw, he was not allowed to experiment with his own invention in any sense whatever. In consequence of that rule, Fessenden was kept dodging around from month to month without anything being done. It was the invention of another man I sent over, viz., Ross, of Washington, which resulted in bringing down the first Zeppelin over Belgium for which the flier got the V.C. Fessenden, as I say, was not allowed to carry on his own work, but the experiments had to be handed over to so-called experts over there and nothing was done. The point I want to make is this: In addition to having a research committee opportunity should be given to a man who has ideas to come to Ottawa, or to some place in Canada, and practically work out those. ideas at the Government's cost. That, in short, is my idea.

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UNION

Robert Laird Borden (Prime Minister; Secretary of State for External Affairs)

Unionist

Sir ROBERT BORDEN:

That is, do research work here.

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UNION
UNION

Hugh Boulton Morphy

Unionist

Mr. MORPHY:

Was the invention to which the hon. member refers any good?

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July 3, 1919