May 23, 1919

UNION

Samuel Hughes

Unionist

Sir SAM HUGHES:

Reference has beeh made by the Minister of Public Works to the fact that a number of officers and men remained in Ottawa. A great many officers remained in Ottawa very much against their own will, but they rendered just as good service in Ottawa as any man who stood in the trenches at the front. Take Colonel Emmett Clark, Colonel Charlie Winter, Colonel Deroche, Brigadier General Helmer, Brigadier General Jos. Langton, Colonel Burritt, and the deputy minister himself, General Fiset. I could name a score of officers here who begged and pleaded to go to the front, but who could not be spared and were not allowed to go. They did necessary, faithful and efficient work here and they are entitled to just as much consideration as the boys who went and did their duty so fearlessly in the trenches.

Topic:   MILIDIA PENSION ACT AMENDMENT.
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UNI L

Frank Broadstreet Carvell (Minister of Public Works)

Unionist (Liberal)

Mr. CARVELL:

Are they entitled to greater consideration than the men who went to the front?

Topic:   MILIDIA PENSION ACT AMENDMENT.
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UNION

Samuel Hughes

Unionist

Sir SAM HUGHES:

Officers, non-commissioned officers and men who remained here and did good service are more entitled to consideration than those officers who did not go to the front but remained in England holding down soft jobs.

Topic:   MILIDIA PENSION ACT AMENDMENT.
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Section agreed to. On section 6-service for pension reduced from fifteen to ten years and to be based on allowance as well as pay:


UNION

William Folger Nickle

Unionist

Mr. NICKLE:

What does that mean?

Major-General MEWBURN: This makes the pension of the men calculable by reference to the allowance as well as the pay.

That has always been the case with officers. This is to make the calculation with reference to the men the same as it is with reference to the officers.

Topic:   MILIDIA PENSION ACT AMENDMENT.
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UNION

William Folger Nickle

Unionist

Mr. NICKLE:

What is involved in the term "allowances"?

Major-General MEWBURN: Officers and non-commissioned officers get a field allowance; a married man gets a lodging and fuel allowance if these are not found for-him.

Topic:   MILIDIA PENSION ACT AMENDMENT.
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UNION

William Folger Nickle

Unionist

Mr. NICKLE:

Does it include separation allowance?

Major-General MEWBURN: No, that goes to the wife.

Topic:   MILIDIA PENSION ACT AMENDMENT.
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UNION

Richard Clive Cooper

Unionist

Mr. COOPER:

Have pensions been paid on lodging, fuel and light allowance?

Major-General MEWBURN: Theire is, in the Permanent Force, a lodging and fuel allowance for married men. The difficulty we are under to-day in reference to the Permanent Force is that we have not sufficient barrack accommodation for them.

Topic:   MILIDIA PENSION ACT AMENDMENT.
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UNION

Edward Walter Nesbitt

Unionist

Mr. NESBITT:

Are these allowances over and above the pension proposed in the former clauses; or is this the total, including housing, fuel, light and all that sort of thing?

Major-General MEWBURN: Officers have always got their pensions on pay and allowances and it Ss proposed to make the man the same as the officer in that respect.

Topic:   MILIDIA PENSION ACT AMENDMENT.
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UNION

William Folger Nickle

Unionist

Mr. NICKLE:

I have still not got the information I want. How much does this allowance amount to? In the case of a private, what would this allowance come to per month?

Major-General MEWBURN: About $1.80 per diem including subsistence allowance.

Topic:   MILIDIA PENSION ACT AMENDMENT.
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UNION

William Folger Nickle

Unionist

Mr. NICKLE:

Do I understand that a man who has served twenty-five years is going to have added to his pension ninety cents per day?

Major-General MEWBURN: No, he gets a proportionate fiftieth for every year of his service.

Topic:   MILIDIA PENSION ACT AMENDMENT.
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UNION

William Folger Nickle

Unionist

Mr. NIOKLE:

fauppose he has been in the service for twenty-five years?

Major-General MEWBURN: A non-commissioned officer on his pay and allowances would get a pension, based on twenty-five years' service of about $739.

Topic:   MILIDIA PENSION ACT AMENDMENT.
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UNION

William Folger Nickle

Unionist

Mr. NICKLE:

For life? -

Major-General MEWBURN: For life-after twenty-five years' service.

Topic:   MILIDIA PENSION ACT AMENDMENT.
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UNION

Edward Walter Nesbitt

Unionist

Mr. NESBITT:

I would like to suggest to the minister that when bringing in Bills of this kind, instead of substituting "ten" for "fifteen" and making changes of that kind in the old Act, if he ,would print the sections as they will read with these changes made and show what the provisions of the old Act are we could discuss these things much more intelligently.

Topic:   MILIDIA PENSION ACT AMENDMENT.
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Motion agreed to. On section 7-period of service during war to be counted for pension purposes:


L LIB

Daniel Duncan McKenzie (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Laurier Liberal

Mr. McKENZIE:

Could the minister give us any fair idea of what amount is involved in putting this Bill into operation and how much it will increase the yearly outlay?

Major-General 'MEWBURN: It will be impossible to give the actual amount involved, but I think there will be a tremendous saving to the country because we will not have to give them their full pay for twenty years, after which time they would get the benefit of the pension system anyway. This makes provision whereby these men can be pensioned after ten years' service. They will only get ten-fiftieths of their pay and allowance, whereas if they had served twenty years they would get twenty-fiftieths. It will be a net saving to the country irather than an increase.

Topic:   MILIDIA PENSION ACT AMENDMENT.
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L LIB

Daniel Duncan McKenzie (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Laurier Liberal

Mr. McKENZIE:

That is taking for

granted that we are obliged to keep these officers on at full pay?

Major-General MEW'BURN: Yes. In the British army they have a different arrangement. Some of these officers, come back from the front and they cannot find employment. Until they have employment they are given half pay. We have no such arrangement in Canada.

Topic:   MILIDIA PENSION ACT AMENDMENT.
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Section agreed to. On section 8-pension to widows, compassionate allowance to children:


LIB

Lawrence Geoffrey Power

Liberal

Mr. POWER:

Is there anything in the

law in reference to pensions for the widows of non-commissioned officers and men under similar circumstances?

Major-General MEWBURN: This provision conforms identically with that of the Northwest Mounted Police Pension Act.

Topic:   MILIDIA PENSION ACT AMENDMENT.
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Section agreed to. On section 9-widow's pension increased to one-half of what husband's pension was or might have been at death:


May 23, 1919