March 27, 1919

UNION
L LIB

Emmanuel Berchmans Devlin

Laurier Liberal

Mr. DEVLIN:

The judges in this case are the law officers of the Crown, who tell us that Sir Charles Fitzpatrick had a legal right to keep the money. Are we to take that into consideration, or are we not? Will the hon. gentleman again be fair and tell me what his view is on that point?

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UNION

Edgar Nelson Rhodes (Speaker of the House of Commons)

Unionist

Mr. SPEAKER:

I think the hon. member should confine his remarks to his discussion of the subject before the House, and not address another hon. gentleman.

<^(r. DEVLIN: Then I ask you, Mr. Speaker, at the present moment the judge of this court, whether you would simply take the facts of a case brought before you and set aside all the law, where the case had to do with facts and law? I take your silence, Mr. Speaker, as indicating that you thoroughly agree with me.

With the statements that we have before us-the statement of the mover of the resolution and some of his friends and the .statement of the Government advised by the law officers of the Crown-what can we poor mortals, layman jurors, decide in this case? Have we not the right to ask that the defendant at least be heard in some way before we decide this case against him? Unless that right is granted, Sir-

that right which is a principle of British justice-I propose to vote against the resolution.

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L LIB

Joseph Read

Laurier Liberal

Mr. JOSEPH READ (Prince, P.E.I.):

Mr. Speaker, I have listened to the legal luminaries on both sides of the House and have come to the conclusion that every hon. member must have come to: That this is really not a legal, but a moral question. With regard to the moral question-the fact that Sir Charles Fitzpatrick has agreed to leave it to the judgment of this House, notwithstanding the fact that he knows the packed jury and the mentality of them-

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UNION

Edgar Nelson Rhodes (Speaker of the House of Commons)

Unionist

Mr. SPEAKER:

Order. I must ask the hon. gentleman to withdraw that remark.

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L LIB

Joseph Read

Laurier Liberal

Mr. READ:

Well, I withdraw that remark. -notwithstanding the nature of the jury, I am perfectly satisfied that in his own mind Sir Charles Fitzpatrick stands acquitted, as stainless -$s a star. Now, to give you my own attitude I shall paraphrase a few words from that grand old moral philosopher, Robbie Burns:

Who made the heart, 'tis He alone Decidedly can try us;

He knows each chord, its various tone,

Each spring its various bias.

Then at the balance let's he mute.

We never can adjust it;

What's done we partly can compute But know not what's resisted.

Then, gently scan your brother man,

Still gentler Charles Fitzpatrick:

Tho' he has gang a kennin'wrang His company's full of bad tricks.

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L LIB

Charles Gavan Power

Laurier Liberal

Mr. C. G. POWER (Quebec South):

Mr. Speaker, I beg to move the adjournment of the debate.

Motion negatived.

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L LIB
UNION

Edgar Nelson Rhodes (Speaker of the House of Commons)

Unionist

Mr. SPEAKER:

Order. The hon. member has exhausted his right to speak.

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L LIB

Thomas Vien

Laurier Liberal

Mr. THOMAS VIEN (Lotbiniere):

A

question of principle has been raised today in the discussion of this whole question. The hon. member for Kingston (Mr. Nickle) stated that in his opinion the money had been unduly taken. Whether it was legally or illegally taken, so long as it was unduly taken, it should have been returned to the treasury. I will not lay very much stress on the question whether the money has been taken legally or illegally, but I will call to my assistance another principle which has been applied ever since Confederation. I refer to the separation of the three distinct powers which are at the foundation of our constitution-the executive power, the judicial

power and the legislative power. It has been the constant practice of all statesmen not to allow any one power to trespass on the province of another. The executive power, the province of which is well defined by our constitution, should not trespass on the legislative power. That is one of the reasons why we so much object to the method of procedure by Order in Council. We consider that by the method of procedure by Order in Council, the executive power is trespassing upon the province of the legislative power. The hon. member for Frontcnac (Mr. Edwards) has, in this resolution, asked us to substitute the legislative power for the judicial power. It is the duty of this House to enact laws, but it is not the duty of this House or of this Parliament to pass judgment on the laws that this Parliament has enacted.

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The House adjourned at 6 p.m. Thursday, March 27, 1919. The House met at Three o'clock.


REPORTS AND PAPERS.


Order in Council of date 19th March, 1919, providing for the cancellation of certain regulations made under the provision of the War Measures Act.-Hon. Mr. Maclean. Report of the Military Service Council for last year.-Hon. Mr. Meighen.


QUESTIONS.


(Questions answered orally are indicated by asterisks.) ORDER IN COUNCIL No. 3168.


THE HALIFAX EXPLOSION.

L LIB

Mr. DESLAURIERS:

Laurier Liberal

1. Has a report been made to the Government as to the finding of the Court of Inquiry into the Halifax explosion?

2. Was Captain Martin, Superintendent of the Dockyard at Halifax, removed?

3. Was Captain Martin subsequently appointed to a position in the Esquimalt, B.C., Dockyard?

4. If so, why was the change made?

5. Was Commander Wyatt dismissed from the service?

6. If so, why?

7. Did any Canadian ratings lose their lives at the time of the Halifax explosion?

8. If so, has the department in any way recognized the bravery and heroism of these ranks and ratings?

9. Is the Government aware that Imperial Government Ratings from H.M.S. Highflyer, who performed similar service at Halifax, N.S., have been awarded medals and placed on the Honour. List in the Royal Navy?

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Subtopic:   THE HALIFAX EXPLOSION.
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UNION

Hon. Mr. MACLEAN:

Unionist

1. Yes.

2. Captain Martin was transferred from Halifax to Esquimalt dockyard as superintendent.

3. Answered by No. 2.

4. Owing to greatly increased work and responsibilities at Halifax dockyard it was considered advisable to appoint an officer of admiral's rank as superintendent thereof.

5. No.

6. Answered by No. 5.

7. Yes.

8. Yes, the names of those who distinguished themselves at the time of the explosion were forwarded to the Admiralty with a view to obtaining for them proper recognition. His Majesty the King has been pleased to approve of the following posthumous awards: Mr. Albert Mattison, late acting boatswain, R.C.N., Albert medal; late Stoker Petty Officer Edward S. Beard, V.R., 1731, R.N.C.V.R., Albert medal; John T. Gammon, Chief Master-atrArms, R.C.N., member of the Military Division of the British Empire Order; Chief E. R. A. 2nd class Hay, R.C.N., Meritorious Service medal; Walter Critch, A.B., official number 1242, Newfoundland R.N.R., Meritorious Service medal. The British Admiralty have requested that an expression of Their Lordships' appreciation may be conveyed to the following officer: Mr. Walter

O'Reilly, Gunner, R.C.N. The Admiralty have sent letters of appreciation to the next of kin of the following ratings: Chas. C. McMillan, Leading Seaman, V.R., 2496; Carl C. Wilson, Able Seaman, V.R., 1561; Albert Saunders, Able Seaman, V.R., 4066; Freeman P. Nickerson, Able Seaman, V.R., 1891; George H. Yates, Stoker 2nd class, V.R., 5480.

9. No information in the Department of the Naval Service.

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Subtopic:   THE HALIFAX EXPLOSION.
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THE STEAMER STADACONA.

L LIB

Mr. DELISLE:

Laurier Liberal

1. At any time during the war did one Lt. Jarvis R.C.N., make a report in regard to the condition of the Steamer " Stadacona," purchased by the Government^

2. If so, is that report on file in the Department?

3. Was the " Stadacona " in dry flock at Vickers, Montreal, at the time the report was made?

4. Were the recommendations in that report followed by the Government?

5. Was Lt. Jarvis a competent person to make a report?

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Subtopic:   THE STEAMER STADACONA.
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March 27, 1919