Mr. HOCKEN:

Well, I was not consulted, and I was not aware of the circumstances until the appointment was made. Here you have a city of half a million people yet a man qualified to act as hardware appraiser could not - be chosen there but has to brought from three thousand miles away. If that does not prove that friendship and not fitness is operating in filling appointments to the Civil Service, I do not know where you can look for evidence of it. To my mind there could not be a more striking proof of my contention.

But, Sir, the same thing is happening in practically every quarter, and advertisements are only sent out as a matter of routine.-A man is picked for the job before the advertisement of the vacancy goes out. He is picked by somebody in this city, some official in the department. Why, Sir,' I have an advertisement here calling for a man to take charge of the fruit inspection for the district of Western Ontario, under the Department of Agriculture, the salary to be $2,000 per annum. The candidate is required to have a thorough knowledge and experience of fruits' and vegetables, from the standpoint of both growers and consumers, and to possess the confidence of the fruit trade generally. The man who had been acting as the local fruit inspector in that district had recommendations sent down to Ottawa by the score and he was qualified in every way for the position, but before the advertisement was issued a man was selected. What kind of a way is that to make appointments? Is that the method of appointment we were led to expect would be adopted when appointments were placed under the Civil Service Commission? As I say a man was selected for this position and he was appointed temporarily. He was kept on for six months, then his term

was extended, and afterwards the advertisement was issued because the Act requires it. The man chosen had been an American citizen before the last election in Canada and could not vote in that election. True he was Canadian-born, but he went across the line and was naturalized there. He returned to Canada, and was not entitled, as I say, to vote at the last election, but he happened to become naturalized here since. ' Then he takes precedence of men - who have lived here and have been serving this country, men who never ran away and were naturalized in a foreign country. This person is placed over qualified men because he is a friend of the officials. The understanding is that the late Mr. Johnson desired this man to be appointed. That is the way the Civil Service is operated.

Was he a returned soldier?

Mr. HOCKEN:

He was not a returned soldier, and had never been near the scene of hostilities. He told a friend on the streets of Toronto that he had the job. "1 have the position," he said, and that was sometime before the advertisement was published.

What was his profession?

Mr. HOCKEN:

I do not know what his profession was, but the facts are as I am stating. This man came over from the United States, and was immediately taken on the staff of the Food Board. He worked on that Board as long as there was a job for him, and when the Food Board was dissolved, another position had to be found for him. He had some friends in the service and he was elected to the position in question. His name is Mr. J. R. Hastings.

We have over the signature of Mr. William FoTan, the chief guide of the Civil Service Commission, the statement that when the time limited for receiving applications has expired, the applications will be submitted to a competent board of judges, who will select a man who is in their opinion the best qualified for appointment. Is that the way, Mr. Speaker, we understood that this thing was to be worked out? Are these commissioners Civil Service Commissioners, or are they not? Have they power to appoint a committee which immediately becomes an unofficial Civil Service Commission without any responsibility? We were not told, and I do not think any person believed when this matter was before us last session, that the Civil Service Commission could hide behind a committee of three

whom they might name to make appointments. The responsibility of these three men to the House and to the country is just as little as it could possibly be; yet an appointee to the important position of Chief Inspector of Fruit for Western Ontario is to be selected by a committee. In the natiSal order of things, Mr. Speaker, who would form that committee? Would they not likely be friends of an official who was interested and who was close to the Civil Service Commission? If I appoint three of my friends to decide whether or not I am fit for a job, I shall have a pretty good chance of getting that job, and so would anybody else under similar circumstances.

And this is the very principle that was adopted when a Superintendent of Penitentiaries was to be appointed. The Civil Service Commission had not the knowledge or the intelligence or the courage to make an appointment, and they selected three men to deal with it, at least one of whom whs known to be hostile to the best qualified man in Canada for the position of Superintendent of Penitentiaries. What chance did he have? Among one hundred applicants his qualifications were the best; but this committee says: None of these candidates are quite satisfactory; we throw them all out and we will advertise afresh. You see how they double-cross the soldier; how they wdiipsawed a qualified man who is a returned soldier, who fought with the Canadian army at Courcelette, who was promoted on the field of battle to the rank of Brigadier-General and who had had twenty-six years of experience in the very -work for which applications were being sought. No one neecT tell me that the people are going to stand for that kind of treatment. That man's application goes in and it is thrown aside; he has not a friend on the committee; there is no official anxious for his appointment. Is there any other conclusion, Mr. Speaker? I do not think that any other conclusion is possible.

At six o'clock the House took recess.

After Recess.

The House resumed at eight o'clock, Mr. Boivin in the Chair.

Mr. HOCKEN (continuing):

Mr. Speaker, when the House rose, I was directing the attention of hon. members to the method by which the Civil Service Commission delegates its functions to committees. I do not think that was ever intended by the Act, and it appears to me to be a most

reprehensible way of doing business. If my memory serves me aright, the Prime Minister last year promised or intimated in some way that it would probably be necessary to appoint provincial branches of assistance for the Commission. Our experience, as far as we have gone, proves the necessity of providing some kind of assistance for the Commission. When they have to appoint a special committee to decide so many questions on so many appointments, it is evident that they are not capable of performing the functions which the House expected them to perform when they were appointed. Perhaps that is not surprising when we face the fact that the chairman is a man who is not in very good health and that one of his fellow members is in the South and has been there for a considerable time owing to ill health. And then there is Mr. Larochelle. But if these men are unable to perform their duties, it is not proper that their duties should be delegated to some group of men who have no authority, no responsibility, and who may shelter themselves behind the Civil Service Commission. I hope the Government will take that into consideration and take some steps to see that if this Act i? to remain in force, the men who fill these positions shall at least be responsible men.

I have another case that goes to prove just what I said before, namely, that there seems to be a man selected for every position before it is advertised. Let me read this advertisement which has been sent out by the Civil Service Commission. It says that they want:

An Assistant to the Chief Clerk of Files and Records under the Soldiers' Settlement Board, at a salary of $1,600 per annum. Candidates must have five or six years' experience with flies and records in a Government department, and must be thoroughly familiar with such a system.

That seems to be a most astonishing requirement. I am informed, and I believe, that a man can begin- and complete his studies in medicine in five years; that a man can begin and complete his studies for the bar in four years; hut to be an efficient and capable filing clerk, a man apparently requires five or six years' experience. Is there any intelligent mairin this House who will say that that length of experience is requisite for that kind of a position? In the first place, it cuts out every returned soldier, because most, if not all of them, have been away for over four years. It absolutely eliminates that particular class of men to whom this country owes most; and yet this is a position that I venture to say at least a thousand capable young

officers, who may be suffering partial disability, could fill. A man without a leg could fill that position. There are young officers coming back so broken that it will be impossible for them to take up their former avocations, and it is the business of this Government and of this country to see that they are offered opportunities of this kind. Let us assume a ease. A young officer may come back who is fifty per cent disabled. Under the present scale he will get somewhere about $500 a year as a pension. Here is a position at $1,600 a year that he could fill, and it would give him, along with his pension, a decent livelihood; but such a man as that is cut out, he is prevented from even applying for such a job because it requires five or six years' experience to know how to file records.

Sir SAM HUGHES:

What is the job, please?

Mr. HOCKEN:

Assistant to the Chief Clerk of Files and Records. My deduction is, I think, reasonable, namely, that a man, who is now in the Government service has been picked out for that position. The job-is practically filled before the advertisement is put into the newspaper. Is there any other possible conclusion than that? Not only officers, but privates by the thousands who will be on our pension list could fill a position of that kind, and it will take a good deal of argument, I think, to convince any intelligent member of this House that five or six years' experience is necessary before a man can file records properly. I venture to say there are young men coming back from the front who could learn that work in as many weeks, because many of those young men have had a liberal education; they have certainly had their powers of initiative and application developed by this war. If we have a Civil Service Commission that is going to cut men out of all opportunity of obtaining such positions what is the use of putting in the Act the statement that the returned soldier shall be given a, preference? Is it not a fact that there is no place for the returned soldier except at the bottom? I presume they put a good many soldiers into such jobs as messengers or elevator men or some menial employment of that kind, but I stand here to protest against that sort of treatment for the returned soldier. Nothing is too good for him and, I care not how important the position is, if he has the qualifications to fill it, he should get it before anybody else. This Commission which was to produce such

reforms, in the filling of positions in the Government service, is being used to pay debts of friendship or something of that kind by putting into jobs men who are not as well or not better qualified than the men who are coming back. But what I protest against with the greatest vehemence is that men are selected for these positions before any advertisement is issued, and I think my contention is borne out by what I have said this afternoon and what I say now.

This afternoon, I gave an instance of a man who was so certain of obtaining a position as Fruit Inspector that before the advertisement was printed he told a man in Toronto that he had it. Here is a case from Halifax. On February 3, Mr. McCoy telegraphed to Michael Dryden at fit. John advising him to return to Halifax as he had been appointed Superintendent of one of the employment offices. The applications were to be in the hands of the Civil Service Commission on February 18, but Mr. Michael Dryden gets a telegram on February 3, that he had been appointed. What do you think about that, 'Sir? That is just in line with the case of Mr. Hastings and practically in line with the case I quoted in connection with the Toronto Customs House. They select a man; in many cases they put in the advertisement qualifications that nobody else can fill and in some cases qualifications that no man can fill, as in the case of a publicity agent, and then they appoint some man who is a friend of some high official in the Civil Service or a friend of some one in the 'Civil Service Commission. We are in danger of filling up the 'Service with not merely unqualified persons, but dishonest persons.

I am credibly informed that in this city of Ottawa there is a certain school. Nobody knows where this school is unless he is directed to it. It does not advertise; the name is not on the door, but candidates who are fortunate enough to be directed to this school are always able to pass with the highest marks. The system has been explained by one of the pupils, a young lady, in this way:

" I was there three weeks and all my time was taken up being drilled in three subjects." And, do you know, when she came to write her examination, the questions were confined to the very three subjects in which she had been drilled. Now, is that a coincidence? Or has the man in charge of the school powers of divination? Does he use a Ouija board, or is he a spiritualistic medium or a clairvoyant? I do not believe he is any of these things, but I do believe that by some method he

knows the subjects that will be dealt with in the examination. How he gets that information I am not prepared to say tonight, but it must be evident that if the only three subjects on which his pupils are examined are the ones in which they have been drilled there must be a nigger in the woodpile somewhere. I have been informed that the method is this. Let me say, first of all, that this process of getting through the Civil Service examinations has passed its primary stage, and is now at the second stage. I do not think it has yet reached a state of perfection, but I have no doubt it will, if given time. The first arrangement was for the party trying the examination to work out the scheme in the room where the examination was being held. The candidate carried into the room a book simijar to the book given out by the presiding examiner, containing the answers correctly written therein. This plan, however, has since been improved upon to meet all the emergencies that might arise, and this improved plan has for its final act, if necessary the substitution in the Examination Department of the Commission of papers having the same number as that given to the candidate by the examiners in the examination, but with the correct answers written by an expert. If an expert wrote the answers he must have had the examination papers before him. We are not left in any doubt as to that being possible. In fact, we can speak with the utmost certainty; we say that it is not only possible, but that it has taken place. There was a case only last week where

a Mr. Joseph Peticlerc was caught red-handed with examination papers in his possession by the chairman of the Civil Service Commission. Where did he get them? If there are no leaks, how can the papers get to him? And if they can get to him, they can also get to the principal of this school.' The whole thing can be worked out in a scientific manner and a regular tarffic set up in examination papers. According to Mr. Peticlerc's own statement he was to pay $310 for the papers, but he was not to pay that sum for two months. The reason for that is that all examination papers are kept by the Commission for two months and then destroyed. After that, there is no possibility of getting evidence against candidates, and it would therefore be safe for Mr. Peticlerc to pay the $310 when the two months had expired. Strange to say, although Mr. Peticlerc had been caught red-handed, when the facts were brought to the attention of the secretary of the Commission, Mr.' Foran said,

" Now that is very singular, because recently a young lady passed an examination with the highest marks, and her success was so astounding that the nuns of the convent told me there must be something wrong, because she was their most backward pupil." These good sisters were amazed at the proficiency of their most backward pupil, and no wonder, when we know that some of their brightest pupils also wrote on the same examination. One would have thought that when this case was brought to the attention of the secretary of the Commission he would have done something more than make a cursory examination. But all that was done was to bring the young lady before the Commission, and as no proof could be secured the case was allowed to drop. Now that young lady is a next-door neighbour to the man who was caught with the examination papers in his possession, and if that case does not arouse suspicion I shall think this a very credulous House of Commons. When Mr. Peticlerc was caught, he said, " I got the papers from General Delivery at the Post Office." Now, if a candidate can get the examination papers in advance from General Delivery, why any person can pass the Civil Service examination. I have no doubt T could pass it myself under such conditions, at least, I would venture a small bet on it. But afterwards, Peticlerc tells a different story. He says, " I got these papers from Mr. Robert" who is also a clerk in the Service. When this story became current, newspaper reporters went to the Civil Service Commission, and whom do you think they saw? One would have thought that they would go to the chairman of the Commission, but I assume they knew that there was some person evert more influential and more likely to have the information than the chairman. So they went to Mr. Foran, who made a long explanation, in which he said:

We are doing all we can to get at the facts ol the case, and I am satisfied that the leak is not here in the Commission, The only man who handles them is our confidential printer, and he keeps the papers in a vault, of which he alone has the key. When they are sent to other parts of Canada they are despatched in sealed boxes by express when the quantity is large, and by registered mail when the quantities are small.

One explanation offered by the secretary of the commission was that the examination papers must have been taken out of the registered mail. That is an accusation about which I think the postal authorities should have something to say. It should be established whether or not it is possible to tamper with the registered mail of this

country. I do not know whether Mr. Foran still adheres to that view, but that was the view he expressed when the case was brought to his attention.

What did Mr. Foran do in the way of investigating? He had Mr. Robert arrested, and he was charged with handing the papers to Mr. Peticlerc. Let us assume the case goes into court. The evidence of Mr. Robert would probably be that he did not hand Peticlerc the papers, and the evidence of Peticlerc would probably be to the contrary. The chances of getting a conviction when conflicting evidence is given by two witnesses is practically nil, and the result would be that the man under arrest would be discharged and the case would be allowed to drop. That would be the end of it, except that the conspirators would go on to perfect their system, so that such a bungle would not occur again. But if the Commission had arrested the man who had the papers in his possession they could have secured a conviction against him, because he was caught red-handed. But they did not want that. I say here, Sir, they wanted to close the matter up without getting the facts. I submit that if that were not the case they would have arrested the man whom they knew to be implicated and from whom they were likely to get better evidence than from any others. I do not know what has been said to him, but I am sure the Commission will not get anywhere under the form of investigation they are holding now. I make that prediction with the same confidence as I made the prediction last year that it would work out as it has done.

Where are you going to place the responsibility for this? Surely it must be upon the secretary. He is the chief executive officer of the Commission and the custodian of the examination papers. If there are clerks under him who are handing out these papers for a consideration-they would hardly do it if there were no consideration -he is the man who must be held responsible. If in your own business, Mr. Speaker, you had a man upon whom you depended, a man whom you had placed in the chief position of responsibility with regard to a thing of this kind, would you go all down the line and pick out the office boy for dismissal? Or would you go to the man who was primarily responsible? In this case that man is the secretary of the Commission. As I said before, do you expect the people of Canada to stand for this method of filling the Civil Service? If you do, 1 say with entire confidence, that you will find yourself mistaken. We want the

Civil Service reformed; but this is not reform, this is establishing a system under which the grossest corruption is practised to the detriment of fair-minded, honest young men and women who are desirous of serving the country in the Civil Service. We have heard the patronage system cursed up and down the country, and a good deal of opinion has been manufactured against it; but the patronage system at its worst was better than this. If you are going to continue this system, you are going to have not only an ineffective service but a service filled with people upon whom you cannot depend. For the man or woman who would take means such as these to' secure an appointment is not fit for a place in the Civil Service.

I have just one suggestion to make in closing, and that is that the Civil Service Act should be amended at a vital point. I would have every position in the Outside Service filled upon the recommendation of the man who sits for the constituency in which the appointment is to be made. I do not want the annoyance of patronage, I would like to get rid of it all; but I would rather face my responsibility in this regard than see the present method continue to be employed in filling the Civil Service. There is no man so well qualified to speak as to the character and general attainments of one applying for a public place as the member for the 'constituency, who knows the applicant, knows his family and his antecedents. By consulting this representative you are on much safer and sounder ground than you are to-day. I have felt it my duty to bring these things to the attention of the House and of the Government. I have only touched the fringe of the subject. There is not a member of this House, I venture to say,-I should be surprised if there were one-who could not relate to you incidents of a similar character to those which I have related. I have one thing to say about the Commission, and that is they have shown remarkable impartiality. In Ontario they have appointed to Civil Service positions more men and women who supported the late Sir Wilfrid Laurier in the last election than those who supported the Union Government. Now that is a form of impartiality which I think is a little strained. I would give 'my hon. friends opposite the right to nominate in their several constituencies every man and woman appointed in the Outside Service; but I would give to the men on this side of the House the same privilege. I submit to you, Mr. Speaker, that that is a fair system and that it will

work out better than the present one,

that there will be less inefficiency in the Service, and more satisfaction in the country. I do not want any man or woman appointed to the Civil Service of Canada who is not needed. That is where I begin.

I do not want any man or woman appointed who is not qualified. When a recommendation is made by the member of the constituency-perhaps two, or three or four names sent in-let the Commission test the efficiency of the candidate in any way they think necessary. But let the appointment rest on the responsibility of the man representing the constituency and you will have a much better result than you will ever have under the law as now operated.

Mr. PIUS MICHAUD (Restigouche and Madawaska):

My desire on this occasion, Mr. Speaker, is to make briefly a few observations on the important questions referred to in the Address. Before going into my subject let me refer to the death of my late honoured chief, Sir Wilfrid Laurier. Sir Wilfrid Laurier during his long political career was animated by the one desire to promote the welfare of his country; and never was a great life more nobly spent in the accomplishment of such a great purpose. His career has been recognized as a most useful one, and the last tribute paid to his remains is but one mark of esteem and appreciation manifested by the whole Canadian people.

. But, Sir, this country is mourning the loss abroad of other good citizens who have given up their lives within the last four years for the cause of liberty. Widows and orphans are turning their eyes every day * towards Europe, towards the fields of Flanders and the soil of France. They have been left in this Dominion of ours with few resources, and -without much assistance. At this time they look towards this capital of the Dominion where we are assembled as representatives of the people and they are asking us if what we have done thus far is all that we can do, and they pray that we should take a deep interest in their welfare. Our returned soldiers to-day are turning their eyes to the capital of Canada and they are asking us whether we have done our duty to them. We must put aside all personal interest and devote our energies to the task of doing justice to the men who have so distinguished themselves on the field of battle.

It is true that several of the different classes of people who compose the Dominion are able to take care of themselves.' The capitalists met in Ottawa during the

war as well as since the war. The farmers met in Ottawa last year and we know what kind of a reception they had from this Government. They were told by the Prime Minister and his colleagues to go back home and work on their farms. They went back home with the remembrance of what they had heard and seen in Ottawa and with the determination that in the near future they will be heard by those who will take the places of the Government who refused to listen to them. They will not only be heard at home but they will be heard in this house. The labour men came to Ottawa and met the Ministers of the Grown. The returned soldiers came to Ottawa and submitted their grievances to the Government but very little has been done for them. Commissions were appointed during the war and many also since the signing of the armistice in order to make provision for the returned soldiers. Let me make a suggestion to the Acting Prime Minister. It is this that every commission appointed by this Government during the last four years should be required to make a report to this House. The Acting Prime Minister should inquire into the details of these reports and we, the representatives of the people, should have these reports before us so that we would be in a position to discover what is lacking' in the provision made by the Government for our returned soldiers.

There has been a slowing up of business since the armistice was signed when we should have had an entirely different condition in a country such as this. This is one of the richest countries in the whole world. The enemy was kept away from our firesides and everybody in this country is ready to help to build up the country's best interests. One delegation came to Ottawa to present the claims of their respective industries but the Government did not welcome them too well. But, prompt and wise measures must be taken by the Government if we are to restore our industries to the position which they occupied before the war. We should invite the capitalists and the workmen to meet at Ottawa. We will never succeed in re-establishing our industries until we get the capitalists and workmen to understand one another. Let me read a paragraph showing what has taken place lately in England:

Committee of 60 members to probe the labour conditions. British way is to have 30 Capitalists and 30 Laborites thresh matter out and report.

London, Feb. 28th.-After an all day session devoted to airing the various phases of labour unrest, the industrial conference called by the Government and in which Government Ministers, labour leaders and representatives of the big employment interests participated, adopted a resolution presented by Arthur Henderson, Laborite, for the appointment of a joint temporary committee to be composed of 30 Laborites and 30 Capitalists to make a thorough investigation into the question of hours, wages, general conditions of work; unemployment and its prevention and the best means for promoting the relations between capital and labour and report back to the conference which will reassemble on April 5th.

It is not necessary for me, Mr. Speaker, to repeat that we must bring about a better understanding between capital and labour before we can re-establish pre-war industrial conditions.

Very little has been said in reference to the great and noble work that was done by the young girls and, women of Canada .during the war. We are perhaps not sufficiently appreciative of the magnificent example of devotion and patriotism set by our young girls and women both at home and across the ocean. They have splendidly seconded the efforts of our gallant soldiers.

The mover and seconder of the Address in reply to the speech from the Throne were very wise in their statements. I followed their remarks very closely and I noted that they preached unity in this country. I understand what unity means. Brought up in an English-speaking province and being a French Acadian by descent, I have learned from my big neighbour the meaning of toleration and good-will. The sun shines upon the head of every Canadian. This country is big enough for every one of us whether we speak one language or the oher. We are all true Canadians and we would like to remain so.

My hon. friend the Minister of Public Works (Mr. Carvell) stated in his address the other day that several millions of dollars will be spent on highways. The policy of building good roads in Canada has been well established and I believe that the money that will be spent on highways, as well as on railways, will contribute greatly to the development of the country.

In my own province within the last two years highways have been improved a great deal and there is no province in the whole Dominion where according to population so much money has been spent for this purpose. Our provincial Minister of Public Works and his colleagues have spent a great deal of money and I am glad to see that this-Government has seen fit to trust the provincial government in each province with the money that will be devoted to the purpose of improving highways. I hope that this policy will produce the result that is expected of it.

We are asked to economize. We had to do so in order to meet our expenditures during the war. We are at the same time asked to build more railways in Canada. I do not agree with the policy of the Government. Let' us stop for a while building railways in Canada. We have enough of them. Let us take care of the railways we have already on hand because we have more than we can afford to attend to. We have bought a number of branch lines and very few are left that are not controlled by the Government. I hope the Government will buy those that it has not already taken over, but, Sir, no more new lines of railway for the present.

On the question of the tariff, Mr. Speaker, let me say that this country will be unable to maintain the indispensable industry of farming if the tariff is not lowered in this country soon. Before long the farmers will have to sell their products at lower rates than they are selling them for now, and, though deriving a diminished revenue from their farms they will be called upon to pay high prices for their farm implements. They will be debarred, if the tariff is not modified, from selling their products in the highest markets, and compelled to pay the highest prices for their farming implements. Sir, this question will present itself again at a later date and therefore I shall not further discuss it at the present time.

Now let me deal with another point. During the last three or four years posters were conspicuously displayed-in public buildings, on the streets, and on the cars carrying our soldiers to the ports of embarkation for the front, not only the volunteers, but the conscripts, also-bearing this motto: "Your services are needed." Today the bodies' of many of those soldiers are lying on the field of battle, but their widows and orphans in Canada need to be cared for. Let me express the Jiope that that care will be ungrudgingly bestowed, and in a manner worthy of those who gave up their lives for their country.

The restoration of our industries to the strong position they occupied two or three years ago is a task that must be undertaken. What are we going to do in that direction? I am not considering those industries which yielded immense fortunes to their owners out of the manufacture of war munitions and materials for war purposes. The gentlemen who accumulated millions of dollars in this country from these sources during the progress of the war, in my opinion, should be required to make a return to' the Minister of Finance of the immense

] Mr. Michaud. [

profits which they derived and contribute to the public chest some portion of those profits, whereby a long step might be made in the direction of re-establishing our national revenues. If we could receive only a percentage of the immense sums which have been earned during the war-time period, beyond all question we should be in a much better position to administer the affairs of Canada.

Mr. WALTER DAVY COWAN (Regina):

Mr. Speaker, as an humble supporter of, that party which the Canadian people by insistent demand brought into existence less than two years ago, permit me to express my extreme gratification not only at the many compliments which have been paid to the mover and seconder of the Address, but also the compliments paid by the leader of the Opposition and some of his supporters to the members of the Government and to other hon. gentlemen on this side of the House. The compliments paid to the mover and seconder of the Address were certainly deserved,, and as a westerner I feel exceedingly pleased at the manner in which they presented their case.

I have travelled a good many times east and west in this country in the years that are gone, and I have never yet discovered where the East stopped and the West began. I do not want ever to see that line marked out. At the same time we cannot help but feel that those who belong to Fort William and the West are realy westerners, and if the speeches delivered by the mover and seconder of the Address are to be taken as an example of wliat is to follow on the part of hon. gentlemen from the West, I think Eastern Canada will soon have to sit up and take notice. But apart altogether from such considerations, I was exceedingly pleased at the compliment paid by the leader of the Opposition to the members of the' Government. The latch string that the hon. gentleman (Mr. McKenzie) spoke of is pretty well worn out, and it is rather dangerous perhaps for me to refer to the sentiment, but I am sufficiently old to recall the early days in this country when the latch string -was very commonly in use. I can recall quite well the class of people that were invited to make use of that latch string, but I never saw a highway tramp or a person of disrepute in the neighbourhood invited to lift the latch string and enter the domicile; it was always genial soids whose friendship was desired; those who were considered worthy and well thought of. Those were the only people who were ever invited to lift the latch string and walk in. Therefore I can

quite understand the new leader of the Opposition, desirous as he is of building up a new political organization, entertaining the desire that hon. gentlemen from this side of the House should go over and help him. Indeed I fancy that when he looked around, with that instinct of Scotch canniness and prudence of which he is possessed, he surveyed the material on his own side, and he lost no time in issuing the invitation to this side, "Come over and come over quickly."

But, Sir, while gratified at the compliments bestowed by members of the Opposition on gentlemen on this side, I must confess to a feeling somewhat of resentment at the tone of the speech delivered by the member for North Essex (Mr. Kennedy), That hon. gentleman rather attacked the Prime Minister of Canada-in fact, he tried to mix him up with Hottentots. I do not know just how 'the hon. gentleman did that but he told us that the Prime Minister had no business being where he was, and that he ought to return to Canada and attend to the business of the country. It was a matter of wonder to me how the hon. gentleman in question, standing as he did behind the seat of his former leader, could so soon forget the lessons taught by his old chieftain. Several years ago, probably ten or twelve, in a political campaign which we were fighting in Western Canada, when I was a bitter opponent of the Liberal party-lor ' I have always been a very ardent Tory and I am not ashamed of the fact-I remember the assertion being made throughout the country that Sir Wilfrid Laurier had made Canada a nation, an assertion I found it 'exceedingly difficult to combat. A great many people believed the statement when it was made, and the great majority of them are stall of that opinion. I quite agree with those who say that Sir Wilfrid Laurier did splendid work in assisting to make a nation of Canada, but, Sir, what was the good of the late lamented Liberal Chieftain helping to make a nation of this country if it is not to play its part as a nation? And, Sir, what is a nation's place? Is it to surround itself with a fence and have no truck, trade or treaty with the other nations of the world? Or are Canadians to take their place, as other peoples do, in discussing with the rest of the nations of the world great international problems, and assisting as far as they can in their solution? To me it seems that the proper place of the Prime Minister of Canada at the present time is where the other nations of the world are at work

helping to solve the great problems that are pressing for settlement.

What have we in this country been doing for the last four years? We sent four hundred thousand troops to Europe to do their part in fighting for us and helping to settle international questions. That was assisting Canada to play its part as a nation, just as Sir Wilfrid Laurier wanted Canada to do, and be a nation in every sense of. the -word. After we have done this, after our troops have assisted in winning victory, are we to bring back our whole army from the front and leave the fruits of victory to be enjoyed by other, nations? I have, of course, no right to speak for the Government because I do not know what it intends to do, but interpreting future action by past events, I should say the policy of the Government of this country should be, that wherever Canada has business to attend to, we are going to have men there to look after that business. Wherever the interests of Canada have to be watched, there we are going to have delegates or representatives, whatever you may choose to call them, to look after those interests. I say this to the Government: If they do not attend to business where it ought to be attended to, they need not expect any support from me. I want the business of the country .to be, done where it has to be done and when it has to be done, and I want it to be done promptly. If hon. gentlemen want these things done in some other way, they will have to get into power and do them. But of all the people on this earth to suggest that Sir Robert Borden should be called back to Canada, hon. gentlemen opposite are the very last. What has been their policy? As an old Tory I should not be at all afraid to leave the settlement of these questions in the hands of the Imperial authorities. But if we bring back our Prime Minister before his work over there is finished, where are we? What must happen? One of two things: Either our interests must be neglected, or we must look to the Imperial authorities to protect our interests., Hon. gentlemen opposite, particularly their late leader, have been .very insistent in maintaining the principle of Canadian autonomy and the right of Canadians to look after their own affairs. That is exactly what we purpose doing-look after our own affairs just as soon as we can. We are quite capable of looking after the affairs of Canada, even though four or five members of our Cabinet are at present overseas attending to overseas affairs. For four long years

400,000 of our best men have been in Europe fighting our battles for us. Did we, while they were away, play the part of cowards, sit down and say: Well, Canada must drift, because our boys are away? Not at all. The very fact that Canada to-day is more prosperous than any other nation and that we have less industrial disturbance than is to be found anywhere else proves conclusively that the Canadians who were left behind knew their duty, were able to do their duty, and did it. While we should like to have these Cabinet ministers back -I for one would be pleased to know that their duty was done, and that they were back with us,-we must carry on the business of cur country while they are away-and I feel satisfied from past events that that will be properly done.

Why is it that Canada is to-day in such a prosperous condition? The speech of the member for North Essex (Mr. Kennedy) contained a wealth of bitterness and was singularly free from anything in the shape of suggestion; it accomplished nothing. Bitterness is the last thing that we should have in Canada to-day. What has been the policy of the Government?

9 p.m. Has it been one of bitterness?

I fancy not. To me it seems that they have invited co-operation throughout the whole of the Dominion, and, what is better, they have succeeded in getting the co-operation which they desire. I remember quite well the time when it was considered to be a proper thing for the provincial governments to be at the throat of the Federal Government and to be causing as much political unrest ap they possibly could. Is there any dispute to-day between the provincial governments and the Federal Government? I have not heard of any in the far East, and I know that the people in our part of the country are exceedingly gratified because of the splendid co-operation which has been brought into existence. I do not know who is wholly responsible for it, but I feel satisfied that one of my old political opponents, the Minister of Immigration and Colonization (Hon. J. A. Calder) is very largely responsible for the feeling of harmony and cooperation prevalent in Western Canada. He is an old Liberal, as he told you the other day, and I am an old Tory, as I tell you now; and we have fought many a battle in the past. It may have been necessary for him to tell you that he is a Liberal still; he does not have to tell me that, for I sadly know it by experience. But although he is a Liberal and I am a Tory, there is a common platform on which,

1 .V:r. Cowan.]

on occasion-and the occasion exists to-day -we can unite, and that is, the common interests of our nation. As long as

he and other members of this Government stand on that platform, I shall be glad to support them. We have, of course, in Western Canada a few-you could count them on the fingers of one hand-who are bitter and narrow partisans. Yet I speak for the great bulk of the people out there when I say that we desire harmony, co-operation and unity. I am satisfied that the policy of the Government is in that direction, and I am confident that they will continue it; at any rate, I urge them to continue the policy of co-operation which they have so well established.

To me it seems that four bodies ought to be invited to unite with us in this spirit of co-operation to decide what is best. First, the provincial governments, in highways, in housing problems or whatever problem it may be, and then, our Great War Veterans-their organization should be perfected and they should be asked to co-operate with us to the limit. When I say that their organization should be perfected, do not misunderstand me. This Government should not take any part in the organization of that body. Let the Veterans choose the organization they wish; let them create the machinery; let them elect their own officers; let them determine their own policy. But give them every encouragement and assistance in order that they may make it as perfect an organization as they can from the Atlantic to the Pacific. There are some, I know, who say that this is a dangerous organization and should not be encouraged. There is no question about the fact that if it is but half formed and if ill-managed it will be a menace to our country, but if it is-as it will be; we oan-not stop it-perfectly organized from the Atlantic to the Pacific it can be of inestimable value to all the governments in the Dominion. I would urge the Government, therefore, to assist as much as they can in this respect in order that we may have the benefit of the advice and assistance of this organization at an early date.

I do not think that we should attempt to come to a -final settlement of the problem of the returned soldier

if you call it a problem; some object to that term-until all the men shall have returned. I do not think it would be fair to those men who are yet overseas to make a settlement before they have had an opportunity of being . consulted in regard to it. Let us continue to do the very best we can for the men who are here to-day, leaving the final set-

tlement until the time when all these men shall have returned, and then this entire body, its organization perfected, will be able to assist our Government, and a satisfactory settlement of matters affecting their interests will be assured.

Then, I think we ought to ask our press to co-operate with us a little more than they have done. I know that during the - four years of war they were subjected to the censorship, and some of them smarted under it-perhaps justifiably so; but it had to be. Now that that ban has been lifted, we ought to ask them to give us every possible assistance; the Government should take them fully into their confidence so that they will know what policy should be pursued. One thing which is being done by one of the committees through the press and which,

I think, is of inestimable value to Canada, is the publishing of advertisements by the Repatriation Committee. Those advertisements are enlightening our people and our returned soldiers as nothing else ever has enlightened them. They are clear, concise, definite; our people know exactly what that Repatriation Committee is doing. -In that respect I think that the Repatriation Committee differs very much from the Food Board, whose publicity was thg worst conducted thing I ever saw in my life.' It caused confusion in the minds of the people, we knew not where we were at all. But this body is doing it splendidly. The member for St. Hyacinthe (Mr. Gauthier) the other day took up one of these advertisements and held the Government up to ridicule on account of them. He read a long list of gentlemen who had been appointed to certain positions, and he said: "Has patronage been abolished? Look at this: Tory, Tory, Tory, Unionist, Unionist, to whom patronage has been extended.-' But if that hon. gentleman had looked at this military or semi-military organization from the inside instead of through a long-distance telescope from the outside, he would have appreciated the position much better than he did.

What is patronage? To my mind it is something which contains a profit. Is there any profit to these medical men in the work which the hon. member told us about the other day? Why did the hon. member not tell us the amount that these men were getting? Instead of that, he simply held them up to ridicule. I know whereof 1 speak, because I belong to an allied profession and have been in a service where 1 could see what occurred. These medical men throughout the Dominion of Canada

who have been and are to-day serving the Government are doing it for one-third the amount of money they could make if they devoted their time to civilian medical practice. As paymaster for the Army Dental -Corps in my district, I have had exactly the same experience. I have issued cheques every two weeks to the men under my command; I had previously issued cheques every two weeks to the same men in my own office, and I know that both the medical and the dental profession in this Canada of ours have been and are fo-dav serving for one-third of what they could get in civilian practice anywhere in Canada. It is a common thing in western Canada, because of the dearth of medical assistance, for medical men to make from ten thousand to twenty thousand dollars a year, and I doubt if any one of them is making less than $5,000 now. Let the hon. gentleman procure a list of the salaries paid to these men and compare them with what they could obtain in civilian practice, and he will see that it is patriotism and not patronage that is moving them, and that he owes an apology to them.

I want to come now to one or two things of probably a more practical nature. The Government has submitted to us a housing scheme and asks us to accept it. The first question that comes to my mind is this-Is a housing scheme necessary? I say most unhesitatingly that something of that nature is necessary, because, go where we will, our people cannot find places in which to live. If that be the case now, what is going to happen in the future? I am told on fairly good authority-I do not know just whether it is right or not-that some fifty thousand of our men overseas have married while in Great Britain. That is a large number; it seems so large that it is almost incredible. If it be true there are so many, I must say that either the English girl is an exceedingly good-looking girl or there is a matrimonial agency of some kind in Great Britain. But be that as it may, a great many of these women are coming for the first time to Canada, strange people in a strange land. Most of them come from comfortable homes, and if they come to Canada and if the Canadian homes are not comfortable we are going to find a great deal of dissatisfaction in a very short time, because Canada is a cold country. There is no getting away from that. If our homes are comfortable there will be no trouble, and the question is to get good comfortable, modernized homes. Have we them? Unquestionably we have not, and we cannot

at present accommodate these people. What, then, is to be done? While I support this scheme I sincerely hope this Government can bring sufficient pressure to bear upon the municipalities to induce them to give the entire amount of money for the housing of our returned soldiers. I think none other should be allowed to share in the benefits of it. I would also like to make this suggestion to the Government: In our part of the world a new condition of affairs altogether has come into existence. In the province of Saskatchewan particularly for years and years our farmers have raised nothing but grain, and grain requires no stabling. In the last three or four years they have changed their methods and have now gone into stock raising to an enormous extent. The progress which has been made in that direction in the last three or four years is surprising. What does that mean? It means that thousands of our farmers to day require more commodious stabling or entirely new stables. If they started to do the building that they should do and want to do and will do, if conditions are satisfactory, we shall not require anything at all in the way of a housing scheme to assist in furnishing employment. In addition to that, many of the farmers are now, I am pleased to say, in a sufficiently prosperous condition to be able to afford to have better homes. What is their complaint? Their complaint is that the cost of lumber is prohibitive; that if they go to work to-day and build a house or a stable -and the same thing is true in the cities-and if in a year or two the cost of lumber and other building material goes down, they will lose a substantial amount of money upon their investment.. Therefore they hesitate, they say; It will probably be better for us to wait until the price of these commodities comes down. Building hardware has, I understand, already fallen considerably in price. But I would suggest to the Government to do would be this, although my suggestion may seem radical to some of my Tory friends:-in view of the tremendous amount of building that can and will be done in that section of the country if conditions are made satisfactory, the duty should, temporarily at least, be taken off lumber so that some reduction may be made in the price of it. It will not, I fancy, be a sufficient reduction. In addition to that, therefore, because a reduction in the tariff will not accomplish everything, I would suggest to the Government that for this year they try to make some arrangement with the railway com-

panies so as to get a lower freight rate on lumber from British Columbia into the Prairie Provinces. In that way they will assist the lumber industry in British Columbia and they will also assist in reducing unemployment in the Prairie Provinces. If they will do that, then the problem, apart from that of the returned soldier, will solve itself, and if we can induce other people to do things for us, there is no sense in our doing them at all. My idea would be to hold out this inducement so as to get the farmers and others to engage in that work.

I am not going to hesitate to discuss the question of a reduction of the tariff. Probably some hon. members may, but being an old Tory and a believer in protection, as I have always been, I have no hesitation in discussing this question.

Sir SAM HUGHES:

That's the stuff.

Mr. COWAN:

But my hon. friend and 1 may fall out when I utter my next sentence. The other day the hon. member for Brome (Mr. McMaster), speaking about the removal of the duty on tractors last year, tried to ridicule the action taken by the Government, and he said,: If they take the duty off the tractor, why is it not right to take it off the. plough? That is logical; that is the proper way to state your case; but the attitude of the western farmer- and I suppose it is the same in Ontario-is that every Government, Liberal as well as Conservative, has been protectionist and the former Liberal Government was just as protectionist as any other government in Canada. I may tell my hon. friends that to-day there are more protectionist Liberals in Eastern Canada than there are protectionist Tories in Western Canada. The attitude taken by the former Liberal Government is this: They removed the duty from the minor article and leave it or increase it on the major article, the result being that they give you one dollar and take away ten dollars. This Government took an entirely different attitude. They said: We

will remove the duty from the major article; we will give you ten dollars, and it will cost yoji only one dollar. The western farmer says: Keep on at that rate and we shall be entirely satisfied with you. I would suggest to the Government that they ought, at as early a date as they possibly can, make a substantial reduction in the duty on the major article, namely, on agricultural implements.

Just a word or two in regard to the statement made by the hon. member who preceded me (Mr. Michaud). He said he was

opposed to the Government's building any more railways in Canada at the present time. I do not know what part of the country he lives in, but I can assure him that there is more profit to the Government in building branch lines, or laterals, as we term them, in Western Canada today than any other enterprise they can embark upon, and I was pleased at the statement made, I think, by the Acting Prime Minister, that the work done in Western Canada this year would be chiefly in building branch lines.

Let me draw attention to the conditions which prevail out there. In the south and southeastern parts of Saskatchewan there is one block containing if I remember correctly 220 townships without a single foot of railway in any one of them. There is a settlement there of good substantial farmers who are raising lots of grain, and in many cases they are from twenty to thirty or forty miles from a railway. The consequence is that they have to team their grain that distance to market. Some people say the farmers are profiteering with wheat at $2.20 a bushel. I would ask those who say that to team grain for thirty or forty miles and see how much profit there is left with wheat at $2.20. These farmers cannot get to market with one load and back again in less than three days. There is really no profit in it at all. The section I am speaking of lies along the Montana boundary line. Thousands of these farmers, in fact the great bulk of them, are Americans who have been brought up where marketing conditions are splendid, and naturally they do not appreciate the conditions on this side of the line. As a result, with a railway on the American side of the line built much nearer for the farmers to. use, they send their grain to the American market, because you cannot have enough police out there to stop it; and the farmers buy the goods they need on the other side of the line, so that Canada loses the trade both ways. Such a condition seems to me to be entirely improper, and I think it should be remedied as soon as possible. Northeast from that there is a block of 190 townships, in which there is not a foot of railway, and people have been in there from ten to fifteen years, twenty and thirty and forty miles from a railway. Women have been in there ten or twelve years and have not seen a railway during all that time because they cannot leave the children and the stock, and the husband is the man who must go to the nearest town to transact the business. In the place I speak of there are

good stores, and the storekeepers are using continuously two, three, and four-horse teams hauling their merchandise from twenty to thirty miles. 'The result is that they add the cost of that teaming to the price of the goods they sell, and you can quite understand that the price the farmer has to pay makes him feel he has a grievance.

What are the conditions along the north bank of the South Saskatchewan river? There is a railway on the south side but none on the north, and this winter I am informed that there are hundreds of thousands of bushels of wheat still lying on the north side because the farmers cannot get it to market. There is a ferry there which runs in summer, but there was just enough ice there this winter to prevent it running, and not enough ice to allow farmers to haul across the river. Their grain is still lying on the north side as they are unable to market it. And then people wonder at the farmers being discontented and seeking a remedy at the hands of the Government.

I understand that this Government is going to build laterals to make connections with the main line, and I hope that when this is done they will see that the Canadian National railways get the biggest portion of the business because the Canadian Pacific has had forty years in which it could have entered that territory, and as it has not seen fit to do so, it should not receive very much consideration at our hands. Furthermore, in the building of these laterals, there should be no parallel roads within a few miles distance of each other. It should be compulsory for the roads to be built a certain distance apart, so that we shall not have a condition where a certain number of farmers will have two lines of railway two or three miles apart, and another lot of farmers will be condemned to live fifteen or thirty miles from a railway for some years to come.

I wish to compliment the Government upon the re-establishment of the Royal Northwest Mounted Police. Some people might ask: Why do you require a large body of police in Western Canada? Are you going to use force and keep the people of Western Canada in subjugation? After forty or fifty years knowledge of the Royal Northwest Mounted Police, it is my opinion that there is not a body of men on eartli who can maintain peace with less exhibition of fprce than the Royal Northwest Mounted Police, they have a prestige which no other body of men on -earth possesses. Let me illustrate. I was a defeated Tory candidate in a Re-

gina constituency in 1911 and I was given that cursed patronage for the district. Thank God that has been done away with; I do not want any more of it; I have had enough. A deputation came to me from the village of Ceylon which lies near the Montana boundary, and asked if I could have a detachment of the mounted police sent to their town. I asked what they wanted a detachment of police for, and they told me that there were a number of outlaws and roughnecks coming across the Montana boundary and getting drunk in the village, and things had got so bad that the women had made up their minds to leave. I called no Commissioner Perry on the telephone. I knew him sufficiently well to know that when I laid a case before him and he said he would attend to it, it would be attended to, and I need not bother any more about it. So I told him the facts, as given to me, and he said he would look into it. About a month afterwards the head of this delegation came to my office in Regina and said " I have just come up here to thank you for cleaning up our place and sending the police down there." I asked if Commissioner Perry had sent a detachment down there, and he replied " No, he only sent one man." I asked if that one man did what was needed, and he said that the outlaws and roughnecks vanished on the night this one policeman with his red coat appeared on the scene. The sight of his red coat was enough, and that is the case all over the West. The prestige of the Royal Northwest Mounted Police is such that at the sight of the red coat lawlessness immediately stops and force is not required, because everybody knows that if force is necessary force is going to come, and come effectively; there is no nonsense about the Mounted Police. For that reason, because of the confidence which our people have in the force, I am very glad indeed that the Government has decided to re-establish it. As soon as this became known the people out West on all sides expressed their satisfaction.

I hope the Government this session will continue to carry out their promise of last session. I have reason to believe they have already started to solve the problem of the coal supply in southern Saskatchewan. Last session $200,000 was voted for the purpose of conducting experiments, and experiments have been made in connection with briquetting lighite, of which we have fifty-nine billion tons in southern Saskatchewan. I hope there will be no departmental sloth in this matter and that the Government will expedite the completion of the briquet-

ting plant because our people are anxiously awaiting it. The people in southern Saskatchewan and southeastern Manitoba feel. that they are being bled unmercifully by the coal barons, who have no right to rob us as they are doing. We feel it is the biggest robbery in western Ganada to-day and we think the problem can be solved, and solved easily, and in a way that will tend to develop our own resources and furnish employment to a great number of our Workmen. The coal is there by the billion tons, and all that is required is to put it, as it can be put, into a marketable, commercial shape, and there will be a ready market. -I urge the Government to expedite that matter so that we may as quickly as possible have the benefit of this great natural resource.

The Government, I understand, intend to bring down a Bill to establish a Health Department. That was opposed by one of the hon. gentlemen opposite. I thing it was the leader of the Opposition (Mr. McKenzie) who said-but I may be mistaken in attributing the remark to him and I do not want to accuse him of that of which he is not guilty-that we did not want more duplication in our public service and that this would be a duplication. I cannot see duplication in it, but I can see direction, and much better direction than we have now, in matters vitally affecting the interests of the Canadian people. There are several defects in the British North America Act, defects which must be overcome by co-operative action on the part of the representatives of the people. There is a defect with regard to the medical profession, with regard to the dental profession, with regard to the veterinary profession. Under the British North America Act these are made provincial, with provincial bounds. As a professional man, if I go into Manitoba to practice my profession, I become a criminal. And so throughout the Dominion we have these limitations in the handling of a problem affecting the happiness and welfare of all the people. Does not my hon. friend know that the importance of public health has made tremendous advance in public estimation of late? Take the ease of the Red Cross. That whole worldwide organization is shortly to meet, I understand, in Geneva. And for what purpose? To arrange that their body may engage as a world wide organization in peace work, in other words in the education of the public in regard to health and its preservation. And in Canada we find our Red Cross meeting no longer ago than last Saturday, determining to petition Par-

[DOT]175

liament to allow them to engage in the same work throughout the Dominion. What are we, as a nation going to do? Are we going to see these great organizations undertake this work voluntarily and give them no national assistance? To my way of thinking provincial bodies cannot all properly undertake this work. In the great province of Ontario where they have unbounded wealth, or in Quebec where they have so much, they may be able to establish laboratories and provide for the research boards to gain the necessary information to establish the best practice in matters of public health. But can we expect the same of the little province of Prince Edward Island? I say we cannot. Yet, are we to regard the health of a Prince Edward Islander as of less importance than that of a citizen of Ontario or of Saskatchewan? I strongly believe, therefore, that it is necessary for the Government to take this problem in hand on national lines, and, by means of a research council and a system of publicity and advice, to enable the provinces to combat epidemics and everything that would menace the public health. I think that the address of the hon-r member for South Toronto (Mr. Sheard) was a most admirable one, and I would like to repeat every word he said on this subject.

I will not detain the House any longer. I feel that up to the present this Government, as was said in the admirable speeches of the mover and seconder of the Address, has done exceedingly well. If it continues to do as it has done in meeting the demands of the people in a sensible energetic way, and in giving to our returned soldiers that which is coming to them, I, for one, am prepared to continue my support. Their treatment of the soldiers in regard to the war service gratuity, I think, was exceedingly commendable. I regard that war service gratuity as compensation in part,

a recognition of the fact that we owe these men something. As to whether or not that compensation is sufficient, I am not going to say-except, that I do not think it is. I think we shall have to do a good deal more than that. We shall have tb bring a portion of our men who served in England, but who nevertheless gave good service, within the operation of the war service gratuity. We receive a great many demands from the several units of the Great War Veterans' Association who are probably not so completely organized as to be controlled as they might be. Some of them are making elaborate demands. The other day the Great War Veteran meeting in Calgary requested that

the men who served in Canada only should get $1,000, those who had served in England, $1,500, and every one who had served in France, $2,000. We owe it to them, there is no question about that, if we put it on a basis of the difference between what they earned as soldiers and what they could have earned in Canada. But we must face this thing in a sensible way. Is it possible for us to give them this amount of money in cash? The aggregate amount would be about $750,000,000. I wish I could think there was that much money in Canada. But it may be possible for us to capitalize the amount and pay them, after the expiration of the war service gratuities, for their service, and- without regard to rank, extending over a period of time, and in that way really effect a final settlement. But what I do think is that we should as soon as possible take these men into our confidence and let them know where we stand. Immediateness is their pressing demand. Hon. gentlemen opposite have been complaining because some of our Cabinet ministers are overseas. I would like to see one more cabinet minister leave his post here and go off upon another mission, right here in Canada. If there is unrest to-day among the great war veterans, it is due to the fact that the Canadian people have not been sufficiently candid .and frank with them, and they do not quite understand the situation. I think that the best thing we could do to allay that unrest -would be for one of our ministers to jump his job here and spend three months in meeting the Great War Veterans in their own halls. I do not mean that this minister should go to Halifax or to Calgary and stay there in his private car or in his hotel room and ask two or three .men to meet him to talk the situation over. Not at all, the minister should go plump into the Veterans' own rooms. He will find them a sensible body of men, ready to discuss things in a sensible way. I have been at their meetings, and I have never heard men discuss affairs more intelligently or with less tendency to be extreme. But what they do want is to meet somebody in authority with -whom they can talk. They will not be bothered with understrappers-no use sending such people, for these men will not listen to them. But if any member of this Cabinet will go out and meet these men as I have suggested he will perform an excellent service. A great deal of this unrest arises out of merely 'minor things. These veterans see a piece of land held by a speculator and they think they would like to get it, and want it right away. Or they see two or three townships held for

quarantine purposes, and they do not see why they should not get that. If one of our ministers would go.and discuss the matter with them as soon as possible, and would give them to understand that the people of Canada intend to do them absolute justice, we should find the unrest cease. I do not know that the suggestions I have made are of value to this House, but at least I have had the satisfaction of mentioning some of the things that I think ought to be dealt with.

Mr. C. A. FOURNIER (Bellechasse):

Mr. Speaker, hon. members have listened with admiration to the many eloquent addresses that have been delivered thus far. I am sorry to be the first to break the line. As you know, I have not the distinction of being a man of letters; neither have I the privilege of being a lawyer. I am a farmer and the humblest of all the hon. members here. If I cannot favour the House with an academic dissertation, I can assure hon. members that they will not be compelled to listen to any lengthy remarks.

As I look to the vacant chair, may I be permitted, in my own name, and in the name of the people of Bellechasse, whom I have the honour to represent, to express our sentiment of the deepest sorrow that the greatest of statesmen is no more. We loved the great Canadian because he believed in Canada and the Canadian people, because he had an abiding faith in the future destiny of Canada, because he had a high conception of what this' great, new country should be and because he followed out that ideal with loyalty and truth. He spent his long life in teaching unity, the most powerful lever by which the rights of all classes are to be respected. He was the soul of personal honour and integrity. He wore manhood's great and noble crown. We trusted him because we were safe with him. We well nigh worshipped this great Canadian living, and true to him to the last, we will continue to honour and reverence him with an unchanging fidelity in death.

I desire to offer to my hon. friend the leader of the Opposition (Mr. McKenzie) my best wishes and I must say to him that I will be a Highlander in my loyalty to him and to Liberalism. I desire to join with the hon. members who have previously spoken in tendering my most cordial congratulations to the mover and seconder of the Address. While I am on this side of the House and while I may differ from them, I may say that the lofty views to which they have given expression and the

manner in which they have presented them, assure them of the brightest parliamentary careers.

This Government has taught me, as it did the rest of the farmers, to be a little suspicious of what it does and says. I do not suppose it expects that I shall say that [DOT] ilt has done exceedingly well. I shall not dwell upon the effort that Canada has made during this war. The Minister of Public Works (Mr. Carvell) in a public meeting, made the statement that Canada was the only allied country that had maintained its divisions at the front to their full quota. Therefore, as far as men are concerned, Canada has done her duty. As far as money is concerned, our debt furnishes the answer.

I desire to say a word with regard to the failure of the Government to make adequate preparation for meeting after4he-war problems. The Government knew well that the war would end some day. The Government refused, practically speaking to confer with the representatives of the people to assemble Parliament. They preferred to deal with Orders in Council-all of them autocratic and arbitrary-and one of the greatest of them was, if I remember well, "work or fight." The fight is finished, Mr. Speaker, but the work is left. Orders in Council will not produce work where the positions do not exist. Therefore, we have unrest in this country due to the failure of the Government to prepare for the after-the-war problems. Far from the seat of hostilities the war has created problems and these problems must be solved.

It was the fashion at the outbreak of war to prophesy smooth things of these post bellum conditions. They, we are assured, differ materially from those before the war. I confess I am not convinced. In a war which, if prolonged, can end only in the ruin of the vanquished and the exhaustion of the victors, I find it difficult to believe that the havoc and destruction wrought. in human life and property can be repaired except by much travail and privation. I find it hard to believe that the industry of this country can be lightly turned from the arts of war to the arts of peace, from forging swords to beating ploughshares, or its foreign trade restored to its former volume and channels without long and painful effort.

Nor am I comforted by those who assume that by the simple expedient of increasing the national debt we can transfer the burden from our own shoulders to those of posterity. I believe that to be a delusion.

It is present capital that is being destroyed, and it is the present generation that must repair the loss or go-without'the capital. A national debt, in so far as it is raised within the country, is a device for transferring money from private purses to the coffers of the state. The state becomes a competitor in the market for capital, and every increase in the rate' of interest which it is obliged to offer tends to withdraw capital from more and more productive enterprises. It is inevitable that capital should become scarcer and dearer, and the surplus available diminished. The material welfare of Canada in the last four years has been maintained by the war. The same influence that has depopulated the country has also, by reason of higher prices for all kinds of agricultural produce, and by reason of the industry arising out of the manufacturing of war materials, supplied the means of financing the nation's affairs at home and abroad. But the real testing time for Canada is after the war, when the present abnormal conditions affecting values have passed away, and we are brought into full competition again with all nations in the markets of the world. Canada has not yet been wholly and severely tried economically. We were prosperous during a period of ten or twelve years before the war because of the commercial activity created by borrowed capital. Money has always been coming into Canada for purposes of development. These sources will not be open now, and we must rely on ourselves. This will be the testing time.

I come to the burning after-the-war problems of demobilization, reinstatement of our valiant sons into civil life, and reconstruction. The Acting Prime Minister said that demobilization was progressing rapidly. I think it is a little slow yet, and I see the statement in the press that the big ships that used to take our soldiers to England ' were withdrawn because the port at Halifax was not equipped to receive big ships.

Now, Sir, it seems to me that the same vessels which conveyed our soldiers overseas could very well convey them back to Halifax, or some other Canadian port. The circulation of any contrary statement without challenge in thp press must be a great injury to this country, and most certainly to the port of Halifax.

Now as to the reinstatement of our soldiers into civil life I have a very warm spot in my heart for these brave men. Much has been said of their patriotism and their sacrifices. Nothing can be too good for them, and if it rests upon my vote,

Mr. Speaker, they can have all they want. But I must say this it has come to a time where soldiers cannot live on compliments. You cannot stuff them any longer with compliments; it is a diet, Mr. Speaker, that neither you nor I would exist very long upon. The soldier needs something substantial to subsist, on, and we are told that he is to be Settled on a farm. Nobody quarrels with land settlement. In America it always was the basic scheme for absorbing soldiers in civil life; how good the scheme may be it depends how it is worked out. It is not my desire to make premature criticism but in my opinion, this plan, as far as outlined by the Government, bristles with potential troubles and dangers for the man who has no practical land experience, and especially who has been dazzled by promises that he would be lent money and established on a ranch, or its eastern equivalent, a farm. I see great dangers ahead, in connection with the scheme, and great care should be exercised to prevent individuals disaster and to the country as well. I say, Mr. Speaker, that the first thing to do is to get behind a returned man's mind and find out what, under his own power he elects to do, and not to tow him into anything that will mean a failure. Failures we must prevent, and we must assure the returned men success. There are just as many discontented men on farms to-day as in any other business, and the farmer is the poorest remunerated lot, and since the armistice, the farmers were the first to suffer losses. I am of the opinion that the enthusiasm displayed at the Hun line, will not be of the same nature in pulling out stumps. It is well advisable that the returned soldier, before he is allowed to drift to civil life and to root for himself, should be dealt with with the greatest care in order to assure his success. So much for the man. Now let me consider the land. As far as I am informed speculatively held land is to be bought by the provinces with money lent by the Dominion, the buying to be done by the province-in plain words the provincial government is to handle the provincial speculator. He is the bone of. contention. I submit, Sir, that great care should be exercised in connection with this scheme. Speculators and land sharks have been praying the Lord for such an opportunity to be rid of their holdings. It is not my desire to say that the land the speculators own is all bad, but in our simple trust and innocence let us not go and pay for orchard land the price of mixed farming lands, otherwise the soldier settler and the country will get

stung. I do not impute impropriety to any government or its member, but speculator's influence is strong, and they know it. In my humble estimation the Government has no right to delegate the buying of lands for returned soldiers to anybody; in so doing it is taking a chance which it has no business to take involving expenditure of Canada's money and the future of Canada's fighting men. Canada at this juncture has no money to fritter away on half-baked schemes, and it is well to look sharply to a possible land speculator's long deferred clean up. Let the Government examine into this just as quickly as the Minister of the Interior would make a Franchise Act.

This brings me to that subject which is contained in the Address. The War-time Elections Act was an Act born of desperation and it served the moist reprehensible purposes. It disfranchised all those citizens who had been teased, coaxed and towed into this country under the solemn guarantees of rights and liberty. It has been a base deception and despicable persecution of foreign settlers, and a direct violation of the State's promise, and it should be wiped off the statute-book, for it is a shame that it should'remain one minute longer. The new proposed franchise mentions the admission of women as members of Parliament. My views on the matter are well known and are recorded in last session's Hansard. I may say that I am not a " rapid change artist," and I see no reason to change my mind and principles. Nevertheless I say this, if the proposed new Franchise Act is to create another hand-picked electorate to rob another election, that, Sir, will demonstrate beyond controversy to my mind, one thing, and that is if the word " hypocrite " should be lost to the English tongue, the word " Unionist " would stand in its place.

Remember, Mr. Speaker, that we shall be judged not by the prowess of our fighting men, but by the sacredness of our pledged words.

Now, as to reconstruction. My utterances on this subject, Mr. Speaker, may be a shock to my hon. friends the high priests of protection. Tariff reform is a part of reconstruction. The member for East Algoma (Mr. Nicholson) who spoke this afternoon, said that when you speak of tariffs you are walking on sacred ground.

Mr. GAUVREAU:

Holy ground.

Mr. FOURNIER:

that one is inclined to wonder if the mil-lenium has arrived over night, or whether Sir Joseph Flavelle is still the cock of the walk, and with him we could all sing the following song:

Is there a profiteer so dead Who never to himself hath said;

"This is my own, my native land."

I've got this country by the hair In what they eat and what they wear,

I'm glad' the boys are over there Upon a foreign strand ;

And so I'll bleed this country white,

They're suckers all, and they will bite,

I'll help myself while others fight;

I'll own my native land.

The price of living so complex It Wen master minds doth vex,

So soak the plebians in the nex Before they understand.

And then when home the hoys are come I'll wave the flag and beat the drum,

And if they're good I'll give them some Of this -dear fertile land.

I do not care a rusty pin,

So' long as I can save my skin,

Preserve my well-clad self.

Why should I care, alas, alack,

While shysters shyst and slackers slack,

If I can make more pelf?

Why should I care who pays the price And gets their heads .packed up in ice,

As long as I can smile?

I hardly care who wins the war,

As long as I can make some more Additions to my pile.

I do not care a tinker's cuss Who goes and cleanses up the muss,

And loses all most dear.

I shall be, if I riches get,

A knight, or p'r'aps a baronet,,

Cos' I'm a profiteer.

And then when I am gone and dead,

Upon my tombstone shall he said:

"He helped I himself while others bled,

For this his native land."

I would like to refer briefly to these wholesale visits of our Cabinet ministers overseas. There are two aspects from which these visits of Dominion politicians and ministers of the Crown to London may be viewed. The first is that they go to give advice on Imperial matters. This is the usual interpretation of Imperial Conferences, and in so far as this is their function they form a fitting superstructure to the organization of our splendid Empire. Well and good. I do not want to reproach Sir Robert Borden for being overseas at the present moment, but I do object to so many ministers going across when there was no need for it. But there is the second aspect. Our Dominion politicians may go to London for the purpose of giving advice and conclude simply by receiving it. Instead of exerting the influence of the Dominion upon

Imperial matters, the influence of Downing street may be exerted upon the affairs of the Dominion. Unless our Canadian politicians are possessed of a hardy, indigenous national culture, those perennial peregrinations to the Imperial fount are. likely to exert a centralizing effect upon their policies not entirely in keeping with the feelings of the people generally, who have not the advantage of yearly pilgrimages to the shrine at Westminster. A more steady policy can be developed only on Canadian soil.

My hon. friend, the Acting Prime Minister, has said that an indictment before an impartial tribunal of the guilty, the wholesale murderer in this war, would.be a good lesson to prevent a future recurrence of war. I fully concur in that, and I hope that the breeze will carry the utterance of the Acting Prime Minister to the ear of Sir Robert Borden. If the Kaiser, the guilty, the wholesale murderer, cannot be punished, or if they do not punish him over there while the conference is going on or after it has concluded its labours, I would like to suggest that Sir Robert Borden *and his honourable colleagues should get the Kaiser away from the castle in which he lives in such splendour, bring him to Canada and compel him to live on an average Canadian pension.

I know that the problems that confront us are very serious, but I do not like to hear the Minister of Immigration and Colonization (Mr. Calder) say that mistakes have been made and that more will be made. That reminds me of a story. In the antebellum days a well-known family physician in a southern city had for a coachman an old darkey who by reason of his long service with the doctor was considered by the community as an authority on matters pertaining to health. One day this darkey was accosted by a passer-by, who asked him "who has died in the next block?" The old darkey straightened up, gazed intently in the direction indicated and breaking into a broad smile replied "I do not know, sir, he is none of our killing." I understand, of course, that mistakes will occur, but we should try to avoid mistakes.

I cannot resume my seat without making an appeal to the Press of this country. As an aid to civilization and human fraternity, there is no greater force existing in the world than the Press, if its best powers are employed for the noblest purposes. The Press ought to resemble a mighty ship which with brave, true men at the helm moves over a straight course, clearing the waters of darkness and error and making direct for the highest shores of peace and

promise. But it must be a ship indeed, grandly built, nobly manned, and steadily steered; not a crazy, water-logged vessel, creaking with the thud of every wave, or bobbing backwards and forwards uncertainly in a gale. The Press is a great educational force. In its hands is the social moulding of a people and the dignity of a nation as represented before other nations. There could hardly be a nobler work; there can never be a higher responsibility.

My hon. friend who seconded he Address said that an antagonism existed between the two great races in this country. For my part, I should like to see all antagonisms submerged. Providence has put us here side by side, and in that relation we must live whether we like it or not. We all'have faults, but let us be men and say "The faults of our brothers we will write on the sand, and their virtues on the tablets of love and memory."

Mr. PETER McGIBBON (Muskoka):

Mr. Speaker, rising for the first time seriously to address this House, I ask the kind consideration which any man placed in this embarras'sing position needs, and which I feel will be gladly accorded by every hon. member. I wish first of all to pay my humble respects to the late leader of the Opposition (Sir Wilfrid Laurier). Though differing with him on many matters of principle, as most of us did on this side of the House, we recognized in him a great Canadian, and a great man. He had passed some forty or fifty years on the political stage of Canada, sometimes tasting the sweets of office and at other times the bitterness of defeat, but on every occasion he played the part of a great Canadian. We were proud of the way he represented us on the occasion of the Diamond Jubilee of Queen Victoria, and at the coronation of King Edward VII. Now, in the fulness of time, he has passed to the peaceful bosom of eternity, honoured by peasant and king, and we mourn his loss. He was unique in the sense that he belonged to a departed school of statesmen. He was a scholar, gentleman, and statesman, and as the poet says, lived-

.... to clutch the golden keys,

To mould a mighty state's decrees,

And shape the whisper of the throne.

I wish also to congratulate the hon. member who is at present leading the Opposition (Mr. D. D. McKenzie). Whether he occupies that position for a long or a short time, on him has been conferred a great honour, and ^ can only hope that so long as he leads his party in this House he will

be worthy of the great leaders of the past and build for himself a monument worthy of the honour which has been conferred upon him.

I am sure, Mr. Speaker, we must all be impressed with the changed conditions under which we meet this year. A year ago our great Russian ally had ceased to be a factor in the war. Rumania had been forced to make peace, and the Germans reinforced by two million men on the western front had broken our lines and were fast marching to the channel ports and the. strategic positions commanding Paris. Those were indeed dark days for us, and-,we remembdr only too well the sadness with which we used to scan the bulletins and read that fateful message of Haig's to his men to stand and "die facing the foe. Then, as if by Providence, in the early days of July things began to brighten. Peace loomed up on the horizon, and by November 11th had wrapped the whole world in his glory. To-day.there are sitting in the beautiful palace of Versailles representatives of all the great nations of the world, in an endeavour to establish a tribunal which will forever do away with-war.

I have also been impressed with the change in the attitude of hon. members of this House from a year ago. Then the hon. member for Russell (Mr. - Murphy) rose from his seat and with all the eloquence which he possesses said to certain members on this side of the House, if not in so many words, at least in effect, "Depart from us ye workers of iniquity. We need you not." I leave it to the House if I am not right when I say that on that particular occasion it was the ambition of the hon. member for Russell (Mr. Murphy) to bury Caesar, not to praise him.

Then, this session, we have had the hon. leader of the Opposition (Mr. McKenzie), arising in his place, and with all the prestige of his position, telling them that the banquet is prepared, that the light is in the window leading them to the fireside where they can all sing,' " Home Sweet Home." Truly, that is a marvelous picture. I know not whether it was the intention of hon. members on that side of the House to seek some political leader to lead them out of the political wilderness, or whether the hon. member for Russell wished to exercise his ability in playing the part of Mark Antony and to make a funeral ovation over the hon. member for Durham. But I believe it will all be in vain. I believe the hon. members who heeded the Scriptural injunction, "Come

ye out from among them," feel that their duty to their country is not yet performed and will not cease until that task is completed.

Now, Mr. Speaker, I wish to say something in reference to a statement by the last speaker (Mr. Fournier), a statement which was made also by the hon. member for North Essex (Mr. Kennedy), and that is that the Premier of this country has no right to be sitting at the Peace Conference at Versailles. I want to say, Sir, as one who got pretty close to the Huns on several occasions on the battlefield, that I think I can speak for others when I say that we consider the place of the Prime Minister of this country to-day is in helping to settle the great questions in Europe, and we think he should stay there and attend to that duty until it is accomplished. I can readily understand that the Acting Prime Minister (Sir Thomas White), who carries the terrible burden of the country's finance on his shoulders, may well wish to have the Premier back; but I think the affairs of this country can be carried on successfully during the Premier's absence. In this connection I must make a passing reference to the hon. member for Brome (Mr. Mc-Master). He told us with great emphasis, that the War-time Elections Act was a blot upon the fair name of Canada. Well, I hope to have the privilege, before this session closes, of voting to keep the German and the Austrian from ever again having a voice in the selection of members of this Parliament. We did not go and fight them on the battlefield-60,000 boys of Canada did not lay down their lives on the sunny fields of France-that there might be handed back to the Austrians and Germans power to control the affairs of this country and I cannot see why in the name of reason there is anything unfair in depriving our alien enemies of any such power. I couple with this the "hope that I may have the privilege of voting for the disfranchisement forever of all the slackers and deserters in this country. I believe that a man who refuses to fight for his country should have no part in the direction of its public affairs. I hope the Government will have the courage to bring in a Bill to disfranchise such people for the rest of their lives.

Now, I desire to refer for a moment or two to a few things spoken of by the hon. Minister of Public Works (Mr. Carvell). I quite agree with him that this country is heavily in debt. Two billions is truly a [DOT]colossal debt for a population of eight millions of people. I also agree with the state-

,

ment made in this House that when a nation, as when an individual, is in debt, there are just two things to be done-produce more and save more. But I would like to draw attention to something which previous speakers seem to have passed by, and that is that we are in an entirely different position from any of the European countries. Take France, for example, every inch of her land is under cultivation, and her population overflows. The same is true of Great Britain, of Belgium and of other countries of Europe. But in Canada we have a country capable of supporting hundreds of millions, and up to the present time we have a population of only eight millions. But those eight millions of people last year had on deposit in the chartered banks and savings banks something like two billions of dollars, a sum about equal to our national debt. Last year we had field crops worth 81,367,000,000; live stock worth 82,000,000,000; fisheries, $52,000,000; dairy products, $93,000,000; minerals, $189,-000,000.,-Yet our natural * resources are almost untouched. We have roughly speaking one thousand four hundred million acres of land, of which practically one-third can be cultivated. But of this cultivable land less than twelve per cent is under cultivation at the present time. If twelve per cent of our arable land can produce wealth in the quantities I have just indicated, what may we not hope for the future, especially-and this is a very important part of it-when, as I strongly believe, we are to have population coming into this country by the million? The advertising that Canada has got in this war through the work of our army, and what the people over there think the extravagant way we paid them, is going to attract to our shores untold millions of people. I do not believe I am wrong in saying that within the next fifteen years the population of Canada will double. If that population is wisely directed towards the development of our natural resources, I think that Canada can get through this war and the liability connected with it better than any other nation on earth, and I believe we shall. What we must do is to produce more, not only from our soil, but in our factories, and in every industry of the country. We must find some place, if possible, to market our products. In this connection I think we should congratulate the Government on the step they have taken in giving to the countries of Europe a line of credit. I wish they could double or treble it, and thus bring to this country orders to keep every factory

and machine shop going, and thus solve the labour problem to a very great extent.

Along with this we have-and it is a very big problem-the repatriation of the soldiers. Some people object to it being called a problem. I think it is one of the greatest problems we have. I would like to call the attention of the authorities to the fact that the problem is partly, and mainly, psychological. That remark is not original with me. It has been made by many, particularly by Col. Molloy whose reasoning is absolutely good and sound and who points out that until this country gets into the way of considering the problem inx that light and of replacing what it has taken out of a man it cannot expect him to start off from where he was before. For three or four years we have-trained a man for one thing and that was to destroy the enemy. We have never allowed him to think for himself. We told him when he should rise, when he should go to bed, how he should dress, what he should eat, and so on and for four years we have treated him in such a way as to have driven out of him practically every ounce of originality. Then he comes back and we immediately expect him to start off from where he was when we took him four years ago. To my mind, Sir, that is, in many cases,' impossible. We have to restore the initiative in that boy, the desire for self-preservation, for creating a home, for creating an estate of his own and along that line I think there should be some serious thinking done.

I want to say a few words with regard to the treatment of the returned soldier. The first thing that I want to touch on is the question of pensions. Wa have a scale of pensions which, I was going to-say, is disgraceful. Probably that is not too strong a word. You draft a boy into the army, or he volunteers for active service, he goes over to France, he comes back with both of his eyes blown out, or he has lost both limbs or perhaps both arms and legs and we have fifty or sixty of those cases in Canada. Is it creditable to the country that we give him $600 a year? That is not the price of one meal per day in a first class hotel in Canada. Canada cannot afford to treat her soldiers in that way. They have earned better, they should get better and I believe the people of Canada want them to get better. Then, too, there are many things connected with them that are not right. Canada has taken the stand that she will not stand by the examination of her own medical officers when soldiers enlisted. I believe, Mr. Speaker, that is grossly unfair and there are those to-day

who have volunteered and given their services for Canada who are going around begging for a living. I have taken cases along that line before the Pension Board and they say that they can do nothing under the regulations. I only mention these things to bring them to the attention of the House, feeling that this is all that is required to have them remedied, but, I think they should be remedied.

Then, I must touch upon the matter of promotion and of appointment for returned soldiers. I agree with the hon. member for Regina (Mr. Cowan) that they deserve a little better than the average person. Are they getting it? I do not think they are. I have not been able yet to get the figures from the Civil Service Commission, but if what I have heard is true the soldier is not getting very much sympathy there. I would like to say too, Mr. Speaker, that as far as the Militia Department is concerned, I do not think the returned men are getting what they ought to get. I would like to see the different positions in the military centres of this country filled by returned men instead of those men who have never been out of Canada. I do not believe, excepting a few men who have special knowledge and fitness, that the men who have been performing these duties are as good or as capable as the men who could be got from amongst those who served in France. As far as the medical fraternity are concerned, it does appear to me that those who got nearest the Hun in France are kept farthest from places of emolument when they return to Canada. It would appear almost as though their service was like the blood on the lintel and door posts of the Israelites: a sign by which they were to be passed over.

I would like to draw the attention of my hon. friend to the condition of the tubercular patients who have returned to this country. I think it is a great mistake to put these patients in civilian institutions. These institutions have been overcrowded for years. We medical men could not get room for our own patients. Now, the military authorities come along, and, instead of looking after the military patients, as it is their duty to do, and as I believe they will have to do, they simply pass them on to the provincial authorities, pay them a certain price and ask them to look after them. I have visited many of these institutions from the Atlantic to the Pacific and I have not yet seen one of them where I considered these men were under the very best, or even fairly good, conditions. I think it is

the duty absolutely of the Dominion Government to shoulder the responsibility of organizing proper institutions for taking care of those patients.

I would like to mention one or two things in the speech from the Throne that met with my very hearty approval. One is the announcement of the Government's policy with regard to public roads. I do not know of anything that will so add to the comfort and convenience of the people in the north country especially as the building of real good roads. It is hard to realize what life means to some of these men. They, are away in the back woods, they get a mail once a week, they have no neighbours, they are there week in and week out trying to hew homes out of the backwoods, and if we wish them to stay there and to build up this country we must make things pleasant and convenient for them. I do not know of anything that will do more in that direction than the building of good roads, giving them a good mail service and possibly a rural telephone. I wish that the Government could see its way clear to give twice the amount of money to the different provinces in order that these ends might be accomplished.

Now, Mr. Speaker, there legislation promised to create a Department of Public Health. I do not think the Government, late as it is, could have found a more appropriate time than the present in which to introduce that Bill. As I have already stated, I believe you are going to have millions of people coming to this country before long, and they will bring with them many of the diseases of Europe. Those people will have to be very carefully scrutinized and examined, and therein lies great work for the new Department of Public Health. Then there is our infant mortality to be considered. More children have died from preventable causes during the last four years than there were casualties resulting from the war. Again there is the great tubercular problem, the great white plague, that scourge that is passing through this country claiming its victims by the thousands and tens of thousands. These are problems worthy of the consideration of the best minds and the best men that can be got for that position. I agree with the hon. member for South Toronto (Mr. Sheard) that in order to get the best results, the best medical minds that can be goFin Canada must be placed in charge. I hope the Government will do that; it is not a department that can be run by laymen and run successfully. Furthermore, we have our

great international waterways. We know how they are contaminated from time to time, and the plagues of typhoid and other diseases that spring from polluted sources of water supply. These are problems, affecting the health of the citizens of Canada, which the Department of Public Health, administered by the very best minds available, must deal with.

With respect to the admission of women to this House, it does seem to me that if the enormous amount of labour and suffering our women have gone through during the last four years, has fitted them for anything, it has certainly fitted them for admission to the legislative halls of the country.

In conclusion, I cordially agree with what my hon. friend from Fort William (Mr. Manion) has said with respect to the real heroes of the great war and I hope that the people of this country will ever keep those heroes in mind, because forgetfulness is so easy once a service has been rendered.

The man who has lived for three or four vears in the trenches in France and Flanders is entitled to our best consideration. He has gone over the top time after time into the very mouth of hell, and sixty thousand of them have laid down their lives on those blood-soaked fields. This country should remember with all reverence those gallant boys who saved the honour of this country, and who helped to maintain intact the integrity of the Rritish Empire, and the civilization of the world.

On motion of Mr. Pedlow the Debate was adjourned.