Sir SAM HUGHES:

Why don't you whisper what you are saying?

Mr. ROWELL :

I said it was understood that the motion would be seconded by a member of the committee on the other side of the House.

Mr. D. C. ROSS:

I will second the motion.

Mr. SPEAKER:

The motion is seconded by Mr. Ross.

Mr. ROWELL:

As the report contains two or three recommendations of great importance in reference to the regulations governing the granting of pensions it is perhaps due to the House that I should say a few words in explanation of some of the most important recommendations.

The members of the House will recollect that the existing pension regulations are based upon a report of a committee of this House made in the year 1916, who at that time carefully considered the whole question. That committee presented certain recommendations' which were approved by the House and passed on to the Government, and the Order in Council creating the Pensions Board and establishing the principles upon which pensions should be granted were based upon the report of that committee.

In order that 'we may better understand the recommendations of the committee now before us, I wish to draw the attention of members of the House to two or three clauses in the existing regulations.

The first clause of the existing pension regulations provides for the appointment of a Board of Pension Commissioners each of whom shall hold office during good behaviour for a period of ten years from the date of his appointment. A permanent commis-

sion was created, it being the view of the House at that time that the pensions should be administered by a board independent of any department of the Government. Then by regulation No. 2 it is provided:

2. Subject to the regulations hereinafter set out, the Commission shall have exclusive jurisdiction and authority to consider and make all grants and payments of military and naval pensions, and of 'gratuities, allowances and assistance to persons wounded, injured or incapacitated in the military or naval service of Canada .(hejneinafter dallied: members) the forces), or to their dependent relatives, and shall have exclusive' jurisdiction and authority to deal with all matters pertaining to such pensions, gratuities, allowances and assistances. (P.C. 1334, June 3rd, 1916.)

Sir SAM HUGHES:

What has the board power to do? We cannot hear two consecutive words; we can only hear a word occasionally.

Mr. ROWELL:

The board has exclusive jurisdiction and authority to consider and make all grants and payments of military and naval pensions and all gratuities, allowances and assistance to persons wounded, injured or incapacitated in the military or naval service of Canada, or to ' their dependent relatives; the board has exclusive jurisdiction and authority to deal with all matters referring to such pensions, gratuities, allo-wanee and assistance. The Board of Pension Commissioners has exclusive jurisdiction within the scope of the regulations to deal with the matters enumerated.

Sir SAM HUGHES:

Is that subject to any appeal?

Mr. ROWELL:

There is no appeal. That was the recommendation of the House at the time. Regulation No. 5 provides:

There shall be no appeals from the decisions of the Commission, but every applicant for a pension, gratuity, allowance or assistance may present' his or her case either personally or by counsel before the full Commission sitting for the purpose of hearing the complaints of those who may have been dissatisfied with the decisions given in the ordinary course of administration,

This provides for a review by the whole board, at which the applicant can be present in person or by counsel.

Mr. MORPHY:

Is it intended that the commission shall sit only in one central place, or will it be a commission which can go to sit in different parts of the country so as to reach the people?

Mr. ROWELL:

There is no limitation with respect to that. The members of the commission may travel through the

country, and I understand they made a trip west last year or the year before. In this respect they can sit in the same man ner as the Board of Railway Commissioners in different places. But the permanent headquarters are in Ottawa, where the administrative work is carried on.

Sir SAM HUGHES:

A great many of these applicants for pensions are persons who are not accustomed to conduct business transactions. Is there any provision that there shall be any barrister or other officer who will look after the interests of those whose petitions for pensions have been presented? In the earlier period there were a great many cases where petitions fell down because of the failure of such persons to properly present their claims.

Mr. ROWELL:

There is no provision in the existing regulations for the appointment of any person to represent the applicant.

Sir SAM HUGHES:

I think there should be.

Mr. ROWELL:

It was stated before the committee that the proceedings were very informal and that any person by writing a letter or forwarding a communication could have his or her claim taken up and considered. That was the statement made to us by members of the Board of Pension Commissioners.

SiT SAM HUGHES: It might be worth while considering whether it would not be well to have a regularly appointed officer for that duty. Some man or some woman should be appointed to an official position, who would properly present these claims. For example, I have had a claim forwarded to me this morning but I have not had time to go into the details. I do not think this duty should be imposed on the Militia, Department because after all it is not within the scope of the business of that department. There should be an officer who would prepare the case for the. board and see that justice is done to those persons who do not know the technicalities surrounding these applications. That is a. suggestion which I throw out to the Government.

Mr. ROWELL:

When the Government

comes to consider the other suggestions the suggestion of my hon. friend will be considered. I refer to clause 7 of the existing pension regulations which says:

All pensions awarded to members of the forces shall be determined by the disability of the applicant without reference to his occupation prior to enlistment.

And clause 9 says:

No deduction shall be made from the amount awarded to any pensioner owing to his having undertaken work or perfected himself in some form of industry.

The principle underlying the existing regulations in. respect to the award of pensions approved of by the House in 1916, is that the amount of the pension should be determined by the percentage by-which the applicant's ability to earn a livelihood in the general labour market has been impaired by service, and that his prior occupation should not be taken into consideration in determining the amount of the pension, nor should his earning subsequent to the disability be taken into account in considering the award.

Mr. EDWARDS:

Do they take into consideration the physical condition of the man previous to enlistment? I shall put it this way-I have heard of some oases where disability has been claimed by the returned soldier and the report has 'been to the effect that he was partially physically incapacitated at the time he enlisted, and a deduction is made from the pension on that account. I take the ground that if a man passed the examination and was put in Class A and sent overseas, we should assume that he was in perfect physical condition at the time he enlisted, and that no board has the right to assume that his physical condition was not perfect when hie services were accepted for overseas.

Mr. ROWELL:

Sir SAM HUGHES:

Is there any distinction drawn between " honourable wounds " and " dishonourable wounds, or is it just the physical condition of the man that as considered when his pension claim comes up.

Mr. ROWELL:

There is a provision in the pension regulations winch bears upon that. Section 20 of the existing pension regulation is as follows:

2'0. No pension or allowance shall be paid to a member of the forces or any person dependent upon him when the disability or death in resipect of which the claim is made was occasioned by the intemperance or improper conduct of such member, unless the Commission otherwise consent.