April 24, 1918

L LIB

James Alexander Robb

Laurier Liberal

Mr. ROBB:

What is the other difficulty?

Topic:   NATURALIZATION ACT, 1914.
Subtopic:   CORRECTION OF CLERICAL, ERROR IN FRENCH VERSION.
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CON

George Green Foster

Conservative (1867-1942)

Sir GEORGE FOSTER:

Topic:   NATURALIZATION ACT, 1914.
Subtopic:   CORRECTION OF CLERICAL, ERROR IN FRENCH VERSION.
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L LIB

Jean-Joseph Denis

Laurier Liberal

Mr. DENIS:

I think eoone plan should be provided by which the name of the person who pressed or shipped the hay might be readily ascertained. Perhaps this could be accomplished by providing that the label should bear the name of the seller or of the presser rather than the number of his licence. In any case, I suggest that some scheme be adopted undeT which a buyer of hay in the United States or * elsewhere may be able to say: this particular bale of hay was bought from so-and-so. If this could be brought about, justice would be done both to seller and to buyer.

At six o'clock the committee took recese.

After Recess.

The committee resumed at eight o'clock.

Topic:   NATURALIZATION ACT, 1914.
Subtopic:   CORRECTION OF CLERICAL, ERROR IN FRENCH VERSION.
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L LIB

Jean-Joseph Denis

Laurier Liberal

Mr. DENIS:

There is a great deal of good in this Bill, and, in fact, we have accepted the principle of it. I am afraid, if section 340F is struck out altogether, we shall, to a great extent, lose the benefit of the Bill. I therefore move that section 340F be replaced by the following:

3 4 OF. Every seller of hay or straw in Canada shall affix to every hale of hay or straw sold or offered for sale a tag, having thereon, plainly written and legible, the name of the seller and the weight of the bale.

This amendment does not go as far as the section drafted, but it retains the provision that on each hale of hay or straw there shall be the name of the man from whom it comes and the weight of the bale.

Topic:   NATURALIZATION ACT, 1914.
Subtopic:   CORRECTION OF CLERICAL, ERROR IN FRENCH VERSION.
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UNION

Matthew Robert Blake

Unionist

Mr. BLAKE:

If these two clauses are struck out, the usefulness of the Bill ceases. The manner of issuing the license is very important, and: the man who packs the hay should he entrusted with the power of grading it. He is there all the time the hay is being pressed, and he can very easily grade it satisfactorily. If he attempts to put the grade down too low, the farmer will attend to that. If there should be added- to this Bill a section penalizing the packer if he gives too high a grade, any difficulty in this section would be overcome. If the name of the packer or his license number, and the name of the man who produced the hay and sold it, were on the tag, there would he something Dy which to trace the hay should! there be any packing of straw or other objectionable

material. These two sections 340E and 340F, are the crux of the Bill, and the usefulness of the measure depends upon their retention according to the suggested amendment.

Topic:   NATURALIZATION ACT, 1914.
Subtopic:   CORRECTION OF CLERICAL, ERROR IN FRENCH VERSION.
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L LIB

Joseph-Charles-Théodore Gervais

Laurier Liberal

Mr. GERVAIS (translation):

Mr. Chairman, I fully concur in the amendment proposed by my colleague, the hon. member for Joliett-e (Mr. Denis). I look upon this clause as being so essential, that the' Bill* to my mind, would be absolutely groundless without it, and the provision embodied in the Revised Statutes of 1906 would be clear enough by having added to it this particular clause -with respect to identification.

The traders complain, and rightly so, of the fact that the hay cannot be identified after it is pressed, sold in big lots, and exported, and I know pertinently that the packers, confident that the stuff mixed up in the pressed hay will not be discovered, will go to the length of mixing with it a variety of things, such as husk, waste taken, from the barn-floor or under the press, and so on. The best means to protect the trader, the good hay producer and the good hay seller, is to have an identification mark.

The owner of the pressed hay is a responsible man as a general rule, and the trader may Teach him; so may the middleman, the big exporter ias well as the trader.

Should this clause not carry-the hon. the Minister of Trade and Commerce seemed inclined to withdraw clause 340F a moment ago-I think the Bill will be groundless and we might as well withdraw it and be left with the provisions of 1906.

I come from a county where large quantities of hay are produced, and I may say that most of the leading hay producers in my county would have their hay identified and their packing recognized. They are not afraid that their goods be identified, but they want them labelled some way or other, and at the lowest possible cost.

I say, again, that I fully approve of the amendment submitted by my honourable colleague from Joliette, and I believe that this clause should be added to the Bill ot that the Bill itself should be withdrawn in its entirety.

Mr. MAYRiAND (Maskdnonge) (translation) : Mr. Chairman, I fully concur in

all the remarks presented by the honourable member for Be-rthier and by the honourable member for Joliett-e, save one. The preparation, especially under the present circumstances, olf an identification mark, is somewhat costly, and we are in war time. Why not have the hay labelled as in the

10EU

past, by means of a pasteboard ticket introduced under the bales, and which is not lost at the time the goods are shipped?

Why should we oblige the farmers to pay twenty-five cents on every ton of pressed hay to give them exactly what they had before? Moreover, the offering of these tags will entail a certain amount of work, at whatever season of the year it is done. It seems to me that we should retain the label we had before, giving the name of the producer selling the hay and heartily endorse the remarks just made by the hon. member for Berthier.

Topic:   NATURALIZATION ACT, 1914.
Subtopic:   CORRECTION OF CLERICAL, ERROR IN FRENCH VERSION.
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L LIB

Jean-Joseph Denis

Laurier Liberal

Mr. DENIS:

My hon. friend says that

the tag should not be expensive and I have drafted my amendment to ensure that. I have used the word "tag" which, I understand, means any label. If the word "tag" means anything other than label, it might be replaced by the word "label".

Topic:   NATURALIZATION ACT, 1914.
Subtopic:   CORRECTION OF CLERICAL, ERROR IN FRENCH VERSION.
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CON

George Green Foster

Conservative (1867-1942)

Sir GEORGE FOSTER:

I can quite see the necessity of retaining those two sections, if the Bill is to be worked out completely on the basis upon which it was framed.

Unless we have compulsory inspection I do not see what good the proposed amendment would do. It is proposed to license every one whb presses hay for sale in Canada or for export. There are a great many people pressing hay-a great many farmers, and a great many professional piessers each serving his district. What protection would it afford simply to have the name of the person who pressed the hay and the weight of the hay? There would be no grading at all. It is impossible for everyone who presses hay to be his own judge of the grade of his hay, or otherwise we should have a different grade for every person who presses, and consequently not having any official grade, there would be no authoritative standard, and you would have no redress. If John Jones, a farmer, presses his hay and affixes his name to it, that does not fix the grade; it simply indicates his idea of the grade it ought to be; that is really not a system of grading at all. It would not suffice in any court of law or be an authoritative grade on which purchase and sale could take place. So, unless you have an inspector to do the grading you get no redress by going so far. When you know that the hay you buy in Montreal or anywhere else was pressed in some district in Quebec, all you have is the empty satisfaction of knowing that although the hay is not up to standard it was pressed by such and such a person.

Topic:   NATURALIZATION ACT, 1914.
Subtopic:   CORRECTION OF CLERICAL, ERROR IN FRENCH VERSION.
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?

Mr. DENIIS@

It is the name of the owner, not of the presser, that I propose to have on the bale? [DOT]

Topic:   NATURALIZATION ACT, 1914.
Subtopic:   CORRECTION OF CLERICAL, ERROR IN FRENCH VERSION.
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CON

George Green Foster

Conservative (1867-1942)

Sir GEORGE FOSTER:

That does not make it any better. Suppose we license every man who presses a single ton of hay, and make him put his name on it and the weight. Then some one suggests that he should also state the grade. What grade? The owner may think it is No. 1 or No. 2 or No. 3 or No. 4; that is simply his personal opinion. The last person to determine the grade is the man who owns the product to be sold. What kind of grades would you have in the grain trade if you allowed every grain producer to fix his own grade? It would not be official at all; it would be the interested party who fixed the grade, and the marking would be of no value whatever as part of a plan of grading. The mere fact of knowing that a load of hay that did not come up to your expectations was pressed in a certain district by a certain man gives you no redress. But if this House will stand by ia system which will license every man who presses hay and make him affix his name and the weight and the grade- the grade to be fixed by a competent inspector-you will have a system which will protect the consumer, but which I think would be very burdensome to carry out all over the country. That is the reason why I abandoned for this year my project of having every hay pres-ser licensed and of having every ton of hay tagged, not only with the name of the presser, but with the weight and the grade as well. By fixing a system of grades, with a chance for inspection all through the country, we are taking a step forward from the position -we are in to-day. If I could take the whole step, and do it without overburdening the 'trade, I would gladly do it; but I .am doubtful if I should be justified in trying to go that far this year. I therefore .ask the House to take this one step in advance and by-and-by w-e can take another step.

Topic:   NATURALIZATION ACT, 1914.
Subtopic:   CORRECTION OF CLERICAL, ERROR IN FRENCH VERSION.
Permalink
L LIB

James Alexander Robb

Laurier Liberal

Mr. ROBB:

The minister brings in a Bill to regulate the inspection and control of hay and straw, the Bill gets its second reading and goes into committee, and now the minister is asking us to strike out the only clause in the Bill which will protect the shipper of hay and enable him to trace back to the presser any irregularities. He built up a case of John Jones, a farmer pressing hay, and. asked what good it would be to know who pressed that hay if it was found unsatisfactory when it got to market. But unless you have such a provision as the

minister himself put into the Bill in the first place, how are you going to trace back any two or three cars that may be unsatisfactory in a shipment of five or ten cars?

If the minister is going to strike out this provision, we may as well drop the whole Bill.

Topic:   NATURALIZATION ACT, 1914.
Subtopic:   CORRECTION OF CLERICAL, ERROR IN FRENCH VERSION.
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L LIB

Roch Lanctôt

Laurier Liberal

Mr. LANCTOT:

II understand the minister to say that grading by the farmers would be of no use either to the dealer or to the farmer himself, and I quite agree, but we all know that hay is being graded at the present time. I have been in the trade for the last twenty-five years. I buy hay from farmers'-generally so much for the whole lot-and I sell it again to others according to the grade. If we know the name of the man who pressed hay that should not have been pressed1, or who mixed hay that should not have been mixed that certainly would be an advantage, especially at this time when many hay dealers in Canada are suffering on account of the heating of the hay. If the information I received from a man who has war contracts' with the Department of Agriculture is correct, many cars of hay were rejected at the wharf on account of heating. You can easily see how this would happen when it took 'trains five' or six weeks to go from Canada to New York during the recent bad snow storms. If no precautions are taken by the farmers the hay is bound to arrive in bad condition, and in order to prevent that we ask that the name of the farmer who presses^ the hay be affixed to his product. If he is caught once he will take care not -to be caught again.

Topic:   NATURALIZATION ACT, 1914.
Subtopic:   CORRECTION OF CLERICAL, ERROR IN FRENCH VERSION.
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UNION

Matthew Robert Blake

Unionist

Mr. BLAKE:

I desire to propose an

amendment to section 340E of 'the Act which will read as follows:

-said presser to grade said hay or straw, and (or failing to do so he liable on conviction to a fine of not more than twenty dollars.

I am satisfied that will meet the case and will prevent any danger of improper grading. I think the man who sees the hay when it is being pressed, if he is accustomed to handling hay, will be as capable of judging the quality of the hay as any inspector.

Topic:   NATURALIZATION ACT, 1914.
Subtopic:   CORRECTION OF CLERICAL, ERROR IN FRENCH VERSION.
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L LIB

Georges Henri Boivin (Deputy Speaker and Chair of Committees of the Whole of the House of Commons)

Laurier Liberal

The CHAIRMAN:

I cannot submit the

amendment of the hon. gentleman to the House. He proposes to amend section 340E of the Act. That section was struck out by the unanimous consent of the committee this afternoon.

Topic:   NATURALIZATION ACT, 1914.
Subtopic:   CORRECTION OF CLERICAL, ERROR IN FRENCH VERSION.
Permalink
UNION

Matthew Robert Blake

Unionist

Mr. BLAKE:

Then make my amendment to section 340F.

Topic:   NATURALIZATION ACT, 1914.
Subtopic:   CORRECTION OF CLERICAL, ERROR IN FRENCH VERSION.
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L LIB

Georges Henri Boivin (Deputy Speaker and Chair of Committees of the Whole of the House of Commons)

Laurier Liberal

The CHAIRMAN:

I am quite willing to propose the amendment in that shape, but there is an amendment before the committee, and when that is disposed of we will take up the amendment of the hon. gentleman.

Topic:   NATURALIZATION ACT, 1914.
Subtopic:   CORRECTION OF CLERICAL, ERROR IN FRENCH VERSION.
Permalink
UNION

Matthew Robert Blake

Unionist

Mr. BLAKE:

It might be put as an

amendment to the amendment.

Topic:   NATURALIZATION ACT, 1914.
Subtopic:   CORRECTION OF CLERICAL, ERROR IN FRENCH VERSION.
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L LIB

Georges Henri Boivin (Deputy Speaker and Chair of Committees of the Whole of the House of Commons)

Laurier Liberal

The CHAIRMAN:

Not in committee.

Topic:   NATURALIZATION ACT, 1914.
Subtopic:   CORRECTION OF CLERICAL, ERROR IN FRENCH VERSION.
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L LIB

Hormidas Mayrand

Laurier Liberal

Mr. MAYRAND (Maskinonge) (Translation) :

Mr. Chairman, I entirely concur in

the statements of the hon. member from Laprairie-Napierville (Mr. Lanctot). He *told the House that an enormous quantity of hay is likely to rot.

By the way, the House will perhaps allow me to point out the usual conditions of the hay trade in our country places. The hay dealers vie with each other as to who will buy the crop beforehand, caring little for the quality. They have no worse enemies than themselves and they are to a large extent responsible for the poor hay which is marketed.

I must congratulate the hon. Minister of Trade and Commerce, and before long. I am sure, that trade will show a great improvement and the quality of the hay which will be offered for sale will show a marked improvement. On the other hand, there is no denying the fact that hay dealers must mend their ways, cease competing with each other and look after the quality of the hay which they put on the market.

Topic:   NATURALIZATION ACT, 1914.
Subtopic:   CORRECTION OF CLERICAL, ERROR IN FRENCH VERSION.
Permalink
L LIB

Jean-Joseph Denis

Laurier Liberal

Mr. DENIS:

I wish to close this debate with a few more explanations. When I proposed my amendment I meant that the owner of the hay should be required to put his name on the bale, and I feel that this method will 'afford means of redress in case the hay is not in proper condition When pressed. Some of my colleagues have mentioned the fact that it is just possible, not only possible but it often happens- and as a lawyer I have had cases of this kind more than once-that hay will be pressed in bad condition. If the hay is pressed in cold weather, say in the moiith of November or December, it will not rot at the time it is pressed, but it will freeze and may keep for two or three months in good condition and present a fairly good appearence until the next spring, as the hay traders know; but when that hay is transported to the United States or some southern country, and during transit the temperature becomes milder, then the hay will heat and rot. I have known of several cases where hay was sent by a dealer in the province of

Quebec to the United States, say in January, and it was found, two or three weeks afterwards to be spoiled, because it had been pressed in bad condition. The experts who open up the bales can find out if the hay has deteriorated on account of being pressed in ibadl order, or because: of exposure to' snow or rain, while the hay was in transit. If it be found that a man shipped hay which had a latent defect, then the man who receives the hay can get redress. Consequently, I think, if the amendment were carried, it would enable .a man who buys hay at any time during the year to ship that hay anywhere, and if it turned out that the hay had been pressed in bad condition, he would have the right to go to the man from whom he /bought it and say: " I bought your hay, and paid

for it, and I am entitled to get my money back, because the hay you sold me had in itself a latent defect; which gives rue a recourse at law against you." I propose the amendment with the object of preventing the clause as first drafted passing the House. I believe, right or wrong, that compulsory inspection of hay, with a license system, would be altogether too complicated and costly. Consequently, I am proposing this as a half-way measure, and if it be not accepted, I will withdraw it, and consent that the clause be struck out altogether.

Topic:   NATURALIZATION ACT, 1914.
Subtopic:   CORRECTION OF CLERICAL, ERROR IN FRENCH VERSION.
Permalink

April 24, 1918