Sir ROBERT BORDEN:

Mr. Speaker, I entirely agree that there are great objections to the course proposed that such matters should be left within the discretion of the Postmaster General, or within the discretion of the Government. I appreciate the suggestion which has been made by the hon. member for Shelburne and Queens (Mr. Fielding). At the same time the Goverer ment naturally must take into consideration the position in which it wonldi be placed toy even that suggestion, (because probably it might toe called upon no.t to stop there tout to 'apply some percentage of increase to every contract that has been entered into toy the Government. Perhaps, now that the discussion has taken place, the hon. member who made the motion will be content to withdraw it in order that the subject may be considered by the Government. The discussion could be renewed in some other way at a later date if .thought desirable. I should like to add1, of course, that all of us have the greatest possible sympathy with those who have undertaken these contracts at a cost which, involves loss to them. None of us. would desire that. But on the other hand there are considerations touching the public interest which, as hon. members on both sides would agree, the Government ought to take strictly into account before any definite action is embarked upon.

Mr. BURNHAM:

In view of what the

Prime Minister has promised, Mr. Speaker, I ask leave to withdraw my motion.

Mr. J. H. BURNHAM (West Peterborough) moved:

distress simply because the Disability Board of the Militia Department has no power to grant to them a portion of the separation allowance, but must grant all the separation allowance or none. "That is to say if the person who was the means of support cannot be described as totally ineffective, the partial disability cannot be considered at ail in giving these people the privilege of separation allowance. That is clearly a very serious matter. It i:s absolutely an evil, and it certainly has brought about, in many cases to my own knowledge, the greatest possible hardship. I do not think the Government itself will admit that there is any excuse whatever for such a state of affairs. It is doubtless a case which has been overlooked, and the sooner the injustice to these people is remedied, the better it will be not only for them but for ourselves.

Major-General MEWBURN: My hon.

friend from Peterborough has raised a very large question that will require a great deal of careful and mature consideration. The separation allowance that is given to dependents of the soldiers enlisted in the Canadian Expeditionary Force is granted under clear and definite terms. It is given to the wives of officers, non-commissioned officers and men belonging to the Canadian Expeditionary Force, and some time ago was extended to widowed mothers whose sons were their sole and only support. Doubtless there are many cases of hardship existing throughout the country of mothers, and in many cases I might say, sisters who were not dependent on the men when they went to the front, but in regard to whom circumstances have since .arisen which cause these unfortunate women to think they should receive the separation allowance to which they are not legally entitled under the provisions of the Act. If you open, up and go into the question of apportioning the separation .allowance according to the need or suffering of the particular individual, it means raising a problem requiring an enormous staff to deal with and throwing an immense additional responsibility on the department in the investigation of every similar case. Tihe instance to which my hon. friend has referred no doubt has been met, or if not it should be met, by the magnificent efforts and work of the Canadian Patriotic Fund. The officers of that fund are working in the very closest co-operation with the Separation Allowance Branch, by whom all cases are investigated. Where no provision exists for the payment of separation allowance to the dependent of a soldier over-

seas, and when circumstances warrant, the Patriotic Fund intervenes and takes care of the needy and distressed. If it is the pleasure of the House that the Separation Allowance should be extended to such dependents, such action, as I have already said, will demand very careful and mature [DOT] consideration. Not only will it necessitate an enormously increased staff but it will mean practically duplicating the work of the Patriotic Fund. The Disability Board investigates, checks, and reports on all these cases; and I think if my hon. friend will withdraw his motion until such time as it shall have received more careful consideration by the department and the Government, the need will be met much more quickly than by having a prolonged discussion in the House.

Mr. NICKLE:

It does not seem to me that this matter can be set aside as easily, or that it is as simple as the minister thinks. Prior to the inauguration of the Military Service Act, when only those were bound to serve who were willing to do so, it was easy for the man who felt that it was incumbent upon him to maintain his parents to remain at home and look after the charge that he had so many years per-rormed. The hon. member for Peterborough m proposing this Resolution did not perhaps go as fully into the facts as he might have done, and therefore it may not be amiss that I should take a minute or two in explaining the principles upon which the separation allowance was granted.

Hon. Mr. MURPHY:

Hear, hear.

Mr. NICKLE:

The separation allowance falls into two classes: It is the amount that is granted to those who are legally dependent upon the man; and it is also granted to those who, although not legally dependent have moral claim upon the man who has gone, or who is to go, to the front. In the case of the wife who is legally dependent upon the man no question arises as to her financial status or position in society. She may have an income of $20,000, or may be in receipt of only $5 a week, but separation allowance goes to her as a right. If a wife has a legal claim she gets, according to the rank of the man, such money as the Government has seen fit to apportion to the various ranks. For nstance, the wife of a private gets $25 a month, whereas the colonel's wife draws $60 a month. That will give you some idea of the spread, or the scope, that exists between the private and the colonel.

Take, however, the case of a man who has gone or who has to go, who does not go

voluntarily. He may .have occupied a position in society from which he may have drawn a revenue of 31,000, $2,000 or $3,000 a year. Suddenly he is told that all this counts for nothing. He is told: Your service to the State is measured by your ability to be a soldier and the work to which you have hitherto given your attention must be laid aside, the income which has been adequate for the maintenance of your family must be foregone and you must go overseas. At once this situation confronts the dependent mother or sister. Five minutes before this man became a soldier he had an income of say $1,500 a year. Five minutes after he becomes a soldier, his income is $1.10 a day plus such an amount as the (Patriotic Fund cares to give. The allowances from the Patriotic Fund are given on well-defined lines : The amount to be given is settled according to the number in the family. Therefore, the amount cannot be increased unless the Patriotic Fund regulations are varied. Three cases in my own riding have recently come to my attention. One was the case of a sister who, before her brother went overseas, had a reasonable living allowance of $1, 200 to $1,500 a year. Suddenly .she finds her income reduced to the income that a private's wife would have, with the exception that there is no separation, allowance. In other words, her brother may make a grant to her of not exceeding $20 a month to maintain a home that has hitherto been kept in the style of about $1,000 a year. Another is the case of a man connected with a large educational institution who had two brothers. One went to the front and I think was killed. The second I think went voluntarily. The third is in this educational institution. He is an unmarried man earning only a small salary, and although the mother has made application for separation allowance, a ruling has been given that as the boy who has been taken, is not the sole support of the mother and as there .might be a possibility if the man in the educational institution directed his energies along another line, he might earn more-he is going to the university and following his studies while at the same time he earns money as an instructor-no separation allowance can be made. 'The third case is that o.f a widow. One son is going-and this is the case of a man going voluntarilyas a surgeon, and he is earning a good income. The other brother, a young imam, is only starting as a medical practitioner. He wrote tne a .short time .ago he was not able 5

to earn enough to .support himself, .much less to assist in the maintenance of his mother, and it has been ruled that, because the boy who remains at home may be of assistance to the mother, no separation allowance .should be granted. As a representative of a constituency that bas sent many men to the front, and that under the Military Service Act will send1 many more, I desire to advocate the rights as I see them of those who remain behind when the State demands the services of those on whom they have been dependent. I do not intend to branch out into .a discussion in regard to the conscription of wealth, but when the State enlists the service of a man compulsorily it is the duty of the State to supplement, at least to the extent of the separation allowance, according to the rank the man holds, the income of those whose income has been depleted by the State saying to the man: " Your services .are now required'; no matter whether you wish it or not, you must go." I believe the general feeling throughout this country is that the dependents, of 'those who have been, or are to be, conscripted are entitled to the most generous consideration of this. House and of the country. This is not a question of an Act; it is a question of a regulation. It was a regulation passed by the Militia Department last year, and it established the principle that no separation .allowance shall be granted when the boy taken is not the sole support. If .1 imay read between, the lines 0'f the remarks made by the minister, I think he would be willing, if the consensus of opinion of this House was in that direction, that the regulation should have the careful consideration of his officers, and I trust .his sympathetic consideration as well.

Sir .SAM HUGHES: Has the minister taken into consideration, or does he understand the regulations in force in the United States in regard to the .support given to the relatives of those who have gome to the front?

'Major-General MEWBURN: In the United

States the authorities go into the question of insuring the man.

Sir SAM HUGHES:

And they also provide him with a revenue equal to what he had before going to the war.

Mr.. T. M. TWEEDIE: This question of separation allowance is one in which every person is interested. I concur very heartily in the expression cf opinion which has been given m regard to this particular class of cases which is the subject matter of tbe re-

solution before the House. I 'have always been of the opinion that the separation allowance has not been established on the basis of justice and equity. In the early days of the war we found that in Canada there enlisted a great many men who left large families behind them, and there also enlisted many men who left behind them no children at all. The result of the regulation in regard to separation allowance was that if a man went to the front and left behind him a wife with no children, that the wife received $20 a month-the amount has since been increased to $25- the same separation allowance as [DOT]was received by the wife of a man who left behind him five or six children. I have known of cases where a man has left behind him nine or ten children, and where his wife has had to support that family on the same separation allowance as is given to a soldier's wife with no children at all. I trust before the close of this ses*sion of Parliament, soma steps will be taken to readjust this matter; that we shall follow to a large extent the system in force in England, and that there will be a sufficient sum granted to the dependent wife and an additional allowance made for each child while the man is at the front. It is only reasonable to ask this of the House of Commons and of the country. It is only doing justice to those wives and children who have been left behind, because I cannot, by any process of reasoning, understand how a family of six can be supported on the same sum of money as a family of two, with only the wife at home.

The Minister of Militia and Defence raised some question in regard to the large amount of work involved if we undertook to adjust this fund so as to render assistance in cases where there was only partial disability- This does not necessarily involve any excess of work. The country in all these cases can afford to be generous, and when we find there is a family left behind and that there is perhaps an aged father, or an infirm brother, or an infirm sister, or an infirm child, the moment we find that physical disability, if it can be established to the satisfaction of the department that the man who enlisted, and through whom the support was claimed, had contributed an amount of at least. $20 or $25 per month to the support of that family, then this country should give a corresponding amount to the support of the woman and children who are left at home. I trust that this matter will be taken up

and thoroughly discussed, and that this House will see its way clear to readjust the system on which the separation allowance is paid so that there will be a scale graduating from the wife alone to the wife with five or six children.

Mr. BURNHAM:

In deference to the request of.the minister, I beg leave to withdraw the motion.

Motion withdrawn.

Hon. RODOLPHE LEMIEUX moved:

For a copy of all letters, telegrams and other papers concerning the steamer service between Montreal, Quebec and the various harbours of Gnrpd.

He said: I shall not delay the House at any length, but as this matter is of urgency I wish at once to direct the attention of my hen. friend the Minister of Trade and Commerce, and of my hon. friend the Minister of Marine and Fisheries, to the serious situation which confronts the peninsula of Gaspe and the group of islands in the gulf of the St. Lawrence known as the Magdalen islands- The county of Gaspe is divided into two well-known parts-the mainland, on the Baie des Chaleurs, and the Magdalen islands, in the gulf of the St. Lawrence. Up till last fall the steamship service between the various harbours on the coast of Gaspe and the large centres of population such as Montreal and Quebec was performed by two steamers, the Lady of Gaspe and the Percesien. The Lady of Gasp6 has been sold by her owners, at a very fair price I am told, and the Percesien, I am sorry to say, foundered in a storm not very long ago on her way to Liverpool. The large population along the coast of Gaspe, as well as the population of the Magdalen islands, depend for a livelihood chiefly on two industries, agriculture and fisheries. There are several harbours between Matane, which is the nearest railway centre, and Gaspe basin. The other section of the peninsula from Gaspe basin to Matapedia is connected with the Dominion by a railway system. I am speaking now chiefly of that section of the peninsula which is on the river St. Lawrence and also of the Magdalen islands. The people there have no communication except by steamer, and I am sorry to say that so far they have been unable to secure a steamer service for next summer. The disappearance of the steamer service between Quebec, Montreal, and the various harbours on the coast of Gaspe has created this situation; the fish, instead of being

shipped inland to Quebec, Montreal, and the Canadian West, is now being gathered up by Americans. I have specific information on this subject, and hear on reliable authority that some Gloucester firms in the State of Maine have sent agents this winter to the coast of Gasl>6 to gather up the fish which could not be shipped last summer through lack of shipping facilities. So much for the mainland. [DOT]

Hon. RODOLPHE LEMIEUX moved:

For ia copy of all telegrams, letters, petitions and all other correspondence and documents, concerning the service of the steamer Amelia between Pictou and Magdalen islands.

He said: This other motion deals with the steamer service between Magdalen islands and the mainland. The situation in that section of the country as regards shipping facilities is just about the same as it was some years ago when I was in the Government, representing the county of Gaape. I then induced one of the large ship-builders of Nova Scotia to build a steamer adapted to the peculiar service between Pictou, Prince Edward Island and the Magdalen Islands. The Lady Sybil was built, but when war was declared she was sold by the owner to the Admiralty, at a very high figure, if I mistake not. The department then gave the contract to the Magdalen Islands Steamship Company which owned the steamer Amelia. I need not weary the House with the many complaints which have come to the Minister of Trade and Commerce and myself with regard to the very poor service given by the Amelia. I quite understand that it is very difficult under present circumstances to get ships, but it does seem to me that the people of the Magdalen islands, isolated as they are for several months of the year, should be given special attention. While I am on this subject, let me tender my hearty thanks to the new Minister of Marine and Fisheries (Mr. Ballantyne) for what he did last fall, when navigation was closed between the Magdalen islands and the mainland. The steamer Amelia, as I have said, was very inferior, was unable to carry the freight that offered and was unfit to carry passengers. I appealed to the Minister of Marine and Fisheries to send the Government icebreaker, the Stanley, to the Magdalen islands, and the hon. gentleman was kind enough to consent to send the Stanley, not 5i

only once but twice, much to the relief of the very thrifty population which has found its abode there. There are on these islands nearly six thousand people, earning their living chiefly by fishing, and also by agriculture. Perhaps I might give to the House an account which appeared in the Toronto Globe of February 6th of the arrival of the steamer Stanley, and the feeling of satisfaction the people of the Magdalen islands had on seeing her breaking her way through the ice and bringing them the necessaries of life for the winter season. The despatch reads:

Charlottetown, P.E.I., Feb. 6.-H. H. Acorn ot Souris, agent there for the Magdalen Islands Steamship Company, has arrived here on return from the islands. He went down there in the Dominion Government steamer Stanley, sent by the Government with a cargo of foodstuffs from Pictou and Souris. She reached1 there on Saturday last, after battling two days and nights with solid, heavy field ice from one to three feet thick, for a distance of forty miles. The ice was encountered after leaving- East Point, -and extended in an unbroken field, without a lead or a crack as far as the eye could see. It was so heavy in places that the steamer could not go more than half her length without bucking, while twice she stuck so hard that the crew were obliged to use slice bars for more than an hour to release her, and on Friday afternoon she covered only six miles in three hours.

Fully five hundred people gathered at the breakwater at Amherst Island to greet the Stanley with musing cheers and see for the first time an ice-breaker in action.

The cargo was discharged- on Saturday night during a snowstorm, with the temperature eighteen -below zero, and on Sunday morning tlie steamer sailed for North Sydney, arriving there Monday morning.

Kerosene and Gasoline Lacking.

Mr. Acorn reports that the islands are now well supplied with food and fuel, but there is a great shortage of kerosene oil. Many families are now without lights in their homes, except for cases of sickness, whilst none will be able to use more than one light durnig the winter.

There is practically no gasoline on the islands, and the fishermen will be greatly hampered in iheir spring work; in fact, no fishing can -be attempted to any extent until a stock of gaso'ine arrives. There are now 100 drums of gasoline at Pictou and: 64 at Souris awaiting shipment, but these could not be carried or. the Stanley without spoiling the flour, meat, etc., which, made up most of her cargo. The people are also in need of a large quantity of stoi k for repairing their boats and fishing gear. This stock is till held over at Souris.

The people are -warm in their praise of the Marine Department and- Captain Rowe in coming to their relief, and -hope to secure the Stanley for a trip in early spring.

This morning I received- the following message, which I believe was also sent to the Minister of Marine and Fisheries:

Sir GEORGE FOSTER:

Mr. Speaker,

three services under the Department of Trade and Commerce which have been for many years subsidized, are of nearly equal importance, and all very necessary. These three have, within my experience, received as large a share of attention and have been as troublesome and difficult as any three in the whole range of our local services. In order of importance, I think the Magdalen islands .service comes first, because the Magdalen islands have no rail communication with the outside world. The next one, I would say; is the north shore. The north shore is sparsely inhabited, but the people of that district are our citizens, and by virtue of the very sparseness of habitation and the extent to which the population is scattered along the coast, have special claims for 'being looked after by the Dominion 'Government in the way of .steamship communication. The other is the iGaspe shore, from Gaspe along the coast, about which my toon, friend has been speaking. That, however, has railway communication on two ends. At Gaspe there is rail connection with the Government railways; at Matane there is rail communication with the rest of .Canada. The important stretch there which has no available service except by water is that portion of the coast between Gaspe and Matane. With reference to the IMagda-len Islands service, my hon. friend sees as well as I do the extreme difficulty of getting any vessels at all, let alone thoroughly suitable vessels for that service. The same holds good with reference to the north shore, and the stretch of country between Gaspe and. Matane, or the old service between Gaspe and the cities of Montreal and Quebec. The two vessels which last year carried on the Gaspe service have gone out of the service, and in spite of every effort put forth toy the department to obtain one, no suitable vessel is in sight. It is possible that a vessel may be obtained; everything possible is being done to obtain one. What I do think should be provided for in some way is the stretch

of the coast between Gaspe and Matane. That ait least would be a relief, if it is impossible to get service on the old route between Gaspe and Quebec.

With reference to the Magdalen Islands service, the only really useful vessel that has ever been on; that service went away early in -the war. I think it was: The only vessel which would be got last year for that service was the Amelia. The Amelia was a serviceable vessel, up to her powers and capabilities, but she did not suit the Magdalen Islands people. S'be was not the best vessel for that trade, but she was absolutely the only one which was available. She was put on and kept on, and performed that service as well as she possibly could, with ,a great deal of dissatisfaction, some of which .was well founded and perhaps, as is usual, some of which, upon investigation, was found not to be so well founded.

Sir SAM HUGHES:

Are these vessels

fitted, with cold storage?

Sir GEORGE FOSTER:

No. Then, in

reference to the north shore service; that service has had a checkered career ever since I have known anything about it. Probably the best service we had was the year before last and part of last year when the Canada Steamship Company performed the service at a very largely increased subsidy. I -think they performed the service to the satisf action of the people along that coast. But the Canada Steamship Company has gone out of the service. They have no vessels which they can .give uh, and at the present time the department is making the beet search it can in order to provide a vessel for the north shore service. That briefly describes the situation in reference to these three. My horn, friend and colleague the Minister of Marine and Fisheries (Mr. Bal-lantyne) has kept well up to the traditions of his department. The. Department of Trade and Commerce, which subsidized the summer service, always collaborated with the Department of Marine and Fisheries for two or three trips early in the autumn or winter and early in the spring when the ordinary subsidized vessel, found it impossible, on account of ice and weather conditions, to make the trip. That is not a new thing. We have always collaborated, .and I am quite sure that we will collaborate during the present year. Whether or not my hon. friend will take the Stanley and put her permanently on that service or whether the Princess can he spared from the service of the Deparment of Marine and Fisheries, suitable or unsuitable as

she may be, I do not know. That is a .matter that is being discussed .by the two departments in order to, reach a conclusion as to what can be dome. But I cannot say anything more to my hon, friend than I have already said, that everything possible will be done to provide some sort of a service. With reference to the north shore service, the people will not be allowed! to- .starve or to, suffer for actual necessities. We will preserve them from that without any doubt, and if we can give them a reasonably good service for their products, as well as for necessities in the matter of living, we shall do it. The same applies to the Magdalen service .and in a modified degree to the Gaspe service. We shall not even be kept from, using the extraordinary powers which the Government has at this time if we can find suitable vessels to get possession of and with which to perform this service. If my hon. friend the Minister of Marine and Fisheries can come forward with some of his vessels and help out now or in the early spring, and if his department collaborates with us along the north shore, it will lead to a happier result than would be achieved without that co-operation.