Sir ROBERT BORDEN:

Why should

not that woman have the right to vote?

Mr. BUREAU:

Perhaps we do not see

things quite the .same way; our mentality may not be the same. |We certainly do not see everything from the same angle, as was shown in the last election, and that matter might he thrashed out in this House before we get through. Cases such as I have mentioned may bring disunion into the family.

Mr. E. LAPOINTE:

May lead to the

divorce court.

Mr. BUREAU:

Yes, and divorces may

be made easier after a while. I saw cases in the last election where a family became disunited over voting. Take another case. In the province of Quebec a man must earn a certain amount a year before he can vote, and I think that is a fair provision. When- election day comes round that man who .has worked hard all his life and has been a good citizen may find himself in an old man's home, while the old lady, living just across the street, will be brought out to vote. I say that is unfair to these old men. If we had universal suffrage it would he alright, but I certainly do not think a woman, should have the right to vote when her husband has not that right. I think these three cases I have mentioned should 'be looked into. I do not want to be .accused of being egotistical. I may say \ that even at my age I do not fear the woman's vote, hut I do not want to see a woman vote when the master of the house has not that right. I think her title to vote should be subject to her husband having the right to vote.

Sir ROBERT BORDEN:

Sir SAM HUGHES:

I think the

tenor of the discussion will lead the Prime Minister to see the necessity of adopting the suggestion of the hon. member for North Perth and having the Bill put in a concise form, eliminating all reference to other Acts. I am a fairly patient man, and I had a lot of good lawyers around me. interpreting the last Dominion Elections Act, but I never met two lawyers yet who agreed on it. I hope that the suggestion of my hon- friend from North Perth will be followed. To my hon. friend from Three Rivers and St. Maurice (Mr. Bureau), I may say. that I have yet to see in this Dominion very many men who go to the poorhouse on account of their wives.

Air. BUREAU:

I must protest against such a construction of my remarks. I think just the contrary; very often it is the wife who has kept her husband from the poor-house. .

Sir ROBERT BORDEN:

Then she should have the right to vote.

Sir SAM HUGHES:

Thousands of women are supporting idle, drunken husbands, and these women are deprived of the franchise while the lords of creation stmt about and control the elections. By all means give the women the vote.

Sir ROBERT BORDEN:

before Parliament all the relevant provisions that must be taken into account when the lists are made up. That would involve, in the first place, every provincial Act in the Dominion from one end to the other that bears upon the franchise, and if the suggestion were carried out to the full, it would also involve embodying in this Act the Dominion Elections Act, and the War-time Elections Act. We shall, however, take into the best consideration possible the suggestions that have been -made, and see whether we can work out something that will meet the views of hon. gentlemen who have raised these points-

Mr. McKENZIE:

I should like to bring to the notice of the Prime Minister the provision in paragraph (c) of subsection (2) in reference to the obtaining of certificates from a court of record or from a judge. That provision is going to work a great deal of hardship and expense. The Prime Minister knows that women cannot, as a rule, go before a court of record; judges do not care to have their courts swarming with women looking for certificates, and somebody else will have to get these certificates for them. But there is a worse feature than tnat. I can only -speak for the constituency from which I come, but in my county there is a -large section which is about eighty or one hundred miles away from a courthouse, or from any place where there, is a judge, and it would be practically a physical impossibility for these women to get their certificates as provided in the Act. I do not see why any woman who is making application to be put on the list should not have the opportunity of satisfying the board, or whatever it may be, that she is qualified in every way under the Act, without being put to the expense and inconvenience of going before a judge for this certificate. There is no machinery -here by which she 'can satisfy the judge that she is entitled to the certificate, and she should be in a position to appear before the court and satisfy the j udge in that regard. There must he some procedure by which the judge is to be satisfied that she is entitled to the certificate. The Act is silent on that point, and a judge would be at a loss to know how he was to proceed to grant a certificate. When the Prime Minister is talking about the War-time Elections Act, as I happened to escape from its machinations as by fire, I have no particular spite against it, but let me warn the Prime Minister, that this War-times Election Act stands away beyond anything that ever visited Egypt in its darkest days, and that those frogs, and

fSir Robert Borden.]

other plagues of Egypt sink into insignificance compared with the terrors and dreads of the War-times Election Act. I would like to tell the Prime Minister that in the dear old province of Nova Scotia we are the best and -simplest people in the world, and have got along for seventy or eighty years with the well-understood Franchise Act, where everybody gets- his name on the list, and there is no trouble about it, and I woul-d like to warn him that he is going to leave a veTy dark blot upon- his name in that fair province, where he stands high and well to-day, if he introduces a measure -similar to the War-time Elections Act, to create strife, dissension and dissatisfaction.

Hon. A. L. SIFT-ON: I was rather surprised- that the hon. gentleman- (Mt. McKenzie) who has had some experience on the bench, should imagine that judges have any objections at alll to women calling at their chambers, I have had some experience myself along that line, and I neveT heard of any objection being raised by any o-f the members of tbe ben-ch in Canada until today.

-Mr. McKENZIE : I was objecting to too many at the same time.

Air. SIFTON:

I agree thoroughly in

regard to that, but if there is anything in this Act that would allow more than one lady to come to the chambers at one time, it certainly -should be eliminated. But this paragraph was- put in- for the -purpose of providing that, under no circumstances, will a female foreigner be able to vote without having the same qualifications as a male foreigner. There -are hundreds and thousands of cases of women -attaining -the age, and becoming British -subjects by the naturalization of their fathers, who have only been a -few -months in the country. It may seem an -anomaly to -those who have been in the habit of thinking that you had to remain three or five years in the country to become naturalized, but thi-s clause was for the purpose of meeting the special case of people who had not spent any length of time in the country, but who were still naturalized British -subjects. Thousands of foreigners have come to this country, leav-. ing their families -at home. They have ^pent the nece-s-s-ary three or five years in the country, and their families being minors, bave arrived a short tune before they became naturalized. Those families became British subjects two or three .months after their arrival in the country. There -are thousands of cases of that kind in Canada at the present time, people who 'became

British subjects without having spent the necessary time here, and although in some respects it is necessary, in training an Act ot this kind,, to give women additional powers over their brothers or their husbands in regard to this, there is no reason why, ilf you -are making a new Act -and taking in- a new class- of people, you should go back to- the anomalies that have bothered the different provinces and the Federal Government in regard -to elections for -many years. The franchise has grown, and it has grown gradually, and conditions have arisen and been met in various places, tout if you are making.a new Act -for the purpose of enfranchising a new class of people, there is no reason why you should not exercise a little common- -sense, and try and make it as fairly equal as possible. One thing was mentioned as an additional advantage given to women over men toy reason of the fact that they would be entitled to vote as British subjects if -they had spent three months in- the constituency. This gets over an -absurdity. In all the elections that have taken place for years there has been this difficulty: that a man might move from Quebec to Manitoba, or from Ontario to Saskatchewan a few months before an election -and lose his vote. Thousands of such cases have occurred in- former elections where good British-horn subjects of the Eastern provinces have Ibeen deprived of the franchise that they have had for years. It was the intention of this Act to cut out the anomaly, so far as women were concerned, and as soon as an- amendment is -made to the Dominion Franchise Act it will toe cut out, I think, -as far as the men are concerned, so that if they dive three months in -a Dominion constituency and are British subjects they would be entitled to cast their votes.

Mr. DEVLIN:

The remarks of the hon. Minister of Customs (Mr. Sifton) confirm me in the opinion which I have held since this Bill was introduced. Why should not the Dominion Elections Act toe so amended as to include under the word ''elector" the word ''female," and then extend the qualifications of an elector to the female as well as to the male?

Sir ROBERT BORDEN:

That is what this Act does.

Mr. DEVLIN:

But it is a separate Act. We are beginning -to have too many Acts dealing with the franchise. My right hon. friend (Sir Robert Borden) has made some remarks respecting the War-time Elections Act. I cannot say that -personally I suffered a great dead bv the War-time ,Elections Act,.

We have in the county which I represent, honest men on both sides, Conservative as well as Liberal, and we never suffer from any dishonesty or disorganization in elections. Each time questions were asked respecting the franchise, it became necessary to take up the Dominion Elections Act, the Soldiers Vote Act, and the Wartime Elections Act. In future elections we will have to take up the Dominion Elections Act, the War-time Elections Act-I hope not the Soldiers Vote Elections Act, because I trust the war will be over-and this new Act entitled "An Act to confer the electoral franchise on women"; whereas, the Dominion Elections Act could be amended in a very -simple way to include -these different provisions.

Mr. SIFTON:

The only objection to that would -be that it would not become law until the War-time Elections Act was repealed, and that would deprive the women of -the possibility, in case of a by-election, of their votes. Another objection would be that there would he no provision for getting them on the list. The only provision there is -for putting them on the li-st is in -the War-time Elections Act.

Mr. COCKSHUTT:

I am in accord

generally with the provisions of the Bill, and desire to congratulate the Prime Minister on redeeming his promise to bring down a Bill of this kind so early in the session. I think it will he met- with favour throughout the Dominion of Canada, and the general principle has been accepted by a large number of the -provinces, though our friends down by the sea are not moving quite as rapidly as Ontario and the West. There is one matter which I wish to speak about, which I do not see provided for here. Every male citizen who has the right to vote has the chance of becoming a candidate provided he will put up $200 and -get the necessary nomination papers and so on. I do not know whether it is the intention of the Prime Minister that ladies hereafter will be eligible candidates for the Dominion Parliament or not. Whether that follows as a -matter of course, or whether other special requirements will have to be complied with, I am not quite clear. Therefore, I would like the Prime Minister to say whether this is really enfranchising them and putting them on an equality with men in all respects, and if it is qualifying them to become candidates at the next election, or earlier, if there is any byelection; or whether they must be permitted through some other legislation to

become candidates for the Dominion Parliament. I know that some of the more advanced of the women's franchise clubs believe that women should be on a full equality with men, if not a little more so, I think the hon. member for Three Rivers and St. Maurice (Mr. Bureau) put it very well when he said that if we give them full equality we should not extend the right to vote farther than we extend it to men. I do not understand from these provisions that that is the intention of the measure, though it may in a few cases work out that way. But it is very important that we should know whether or not women shall be eligible as candidates for the Dominion Parliament. My hon. friend from South Perth (Mr. Steele) asks me what I think. I do not intend to express myself just now on that point. If I were going to run I would rather run against two men than against one woman. This is a question that cannot be downed without an answer, and if the Prime Minister is prepared to give an answer to it I would be very glad to hear it.

Sir ROBERT BORDEN:

It would require the amendment, I think, of another Act. This is merely a franchise Act. As far as the general principle is concerned, I shall imitate the prudent reserve of my hon. friend (Mr. Cockshutt) who has just spoken.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER:

There is an exception, which has probably been made after consideration, and it is this:

Provided, however, that this paragraph shall not apply to the wife of an alien enemy.

Has this been considered?

Sir ROBERT BORDEN:

As I understand it the Bill provides that a woman who marries an alien shall not thereby lose her right to vote, but that this paragraph shall not apply to the wife of an alien enemy.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER. As to this I would have to make the same objection as that which we made on this side of the House to certain provisions of the War-Time Elections Act. The term " alien enemy '' may be made elastic. The alien enemies that we have at the present time are three in number-Germany, Austria and Turkey. If I remember aright I think the exclusion which was made of alien enemies