Mr. MEIGHEN:

In British Columbia.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER:

At the present time the reserve which will be immediately affected by this provision will be in British Columbia? Is it in contemplation that it will be applied immediately in any other province than British Columbia?

Mr. MEIGHEN:

The Act applies equally to all forest reserves but, from memory, the case that is mow under review is in British Columbia. It is clear that the Act must be general in terms and in all likelihood it will be availed of in any province wherever a road is to be altered. There is no way of altering it now under the law.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER:

I do not aek the question in any captious spirit. I believe that conditions may change in these reserves and that such legislation as this may be commendable. I am only asking for information if it is intended to apply this provision anywhere else than in British Columbia. -

Mr. MEIGHEN:

I am not even certain that British Columbia is the province where the immediate case arises but, from memory, I think it is, 'and I do- not know of any more than one case.

Sir SAM HUGHES:

The section reads:

Provided, however, that where, for topographical or other reasons, it is not expedient to -use for public road purposes the existing road allowances.

Why not put it the other way and say:

Where it is more expedient to use new routes.

This would make provision for using the old road allowances as well as new routes. There are many places in the Northwest where it is of great advantage to the travelling public to have wagon roads laid out immediately adjacent to the railroads. If

this were changed about as I suggested, it would not 'be restricted to any routes.

Mr. MEIGHEN:

I read the hon. gentleman's remarks yesterday, and what he said is quite correct; the Act at present provides for that. The Dominion may lay out a road anywhere without closing any other road.

Sir SAM HUGHES:

That is all right.

On section 2-to authorize grant of minerals in forest reserves to Province of British Columbia, under agreement of February, 1890:

Mr. MEIGHEN:

It will be remembered that the Privy Council has held that the title to the precious metals in the railway belt is in the province, and that the title to the baser metals and to the surface is in the Dominion. In the administration of the Act in the past, constant difficulties arose, which difficulties were got over by the agreement that is referred to here whereby it was provided that if an applicant worked mineral rights in the province, and lived up to the provisions of the Mineral Act of the province, he could acquire patent on payment of a fixed amount, or he could acquire title to the surface rights and to the baser metals. That arrangement has been working ever since 1890, and in consequence we do not administer any of the baser metals in the Railway Belt except coal, and there is very little coal. But when the Dominion Forest Reserves Act was passed in 1911, there was a clause of that Act by which the Minister was refused permission to convey title to any lands at all within the limits of a forest reserve. These lands were locked up and no one was empowered by authority of Par-. liameht to issue a patent for any purpose whatsoever. The result was that wherever there were mineral claims in relation to these lands it was impossible to carry out the terms of the agreement of 1890. By this amendment we propose to make it possible to carry out the terms of the agreement in respect to forest reserve lands just as in respect to other lands in the railway belt.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER:

I did not exactly follow what was said by my hon. friend (Mr. Meighen). By a decision of the Privy Council one class of metal was held to be the property of the province and another class of metal was held to be the property of the Dominion?

Mr. MEIGHEN:

Yes.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER:

The baser

metals were held to be the property of the province ?

Mr. MEIGHEN:

No, of the Dominion;

the precious metals were held to be the property of the province.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER:

Under the law as it is to-day the baser metals belong to the Dominion, and the object is to transfer these baser metals to the province?

Mr. MEIGHEN:

No, not quite. The

object is not to transfer the baser metals in toto to the province by any means. The object is to enable us to carry out the arrangement as to the transfer of the baser metals to the patentee of the province in individual cases, which, arrangement we made in 1890 but which, by reason of the Forest Reserves Act of 1911, cannot now be applied in the case of forest reserves. Under the arrangement of 1890, it was provided that wherever a man was, under the law of the province entitled to a patent, having lived up to the regulations and to the Mineral Act of the province, he could get a patent from the province to the precious metals, and that he thereby became entitled to a patent frojn the Dominion to the baser metals and surface rights upon payment of a fixed amount. But, by the Forest Reserves Act, it was provided that no patent could be given under any conditions to any lands in the forest reserves. Consequently a patent could not be given to a patentee of mineral rights in the province. This amendment provides that we may carry out the arrangement of 1890 as respects forest reserve lands just as we could previously carry it out, and as we now carry it out, as respects other lands in the railway belt.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER:

It means that the metals which belong to the Dominion [DOT]may be transferred to the province and by the province 'granted to somebody for the purpose of exploitation?

Mr. MEIGHEN:

May ,be transferred

direct to the patentee of the province.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER:

Exactly. Is not this possibly interfering with the policy which guided Parliament when it passed the Act of 1911, that is to say, to preserve the forest reserves certain restrictions are necessary ns far as possible to keep the forests in a state of nature and prevent exploitation by 'human hands. The great tendency to-day is toward the exploitation of minerals in forests, and, in consequence, valuable quantities of timber land are destroyed every year. Now, as I understand,

the object of my hon. friend is to permit exploitation of minerals. In many cases, in order to get at one good mine, it may be necessary to open ten, and all the dangers which I have mentioned may, therefore, arise in the forest. Do I understand that the policy of my hon. friend is that if a man goes into a Dominion reserve and locates a mine he would get title from my hon. friend, who is the administrator of the reserve, or would he go to the Government of British Oolmmlbia, and would the hon. minister give the land to the Government of British Columbia? Is that the object, of the legislation? I am afraid that it will have to 'be very carefully guarded if the purpose of the Act of 1911, to preserve the forests, is to he maintained.

Hon. Mr. MEIGHEN:

What the right hon. gentleman says is correct that in so far as this operates it does give encouragement to the exploiters of minerals, even in forest reserves. But, on the other hand, it must ibe remembered that by no Act of Parliament can we take away from a province what is now the property of the province even in forest reserves. By the Act of 1911 we closed the forest reserves in so far as we had control of them.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER:

It is the property of the province?