September 13, 1917

LIB

Rodolphe Lemieux

Liberal

Mr. LEMIEUX:

We are reviving an old case, but because I .had seen in the press, as I stated, representations to the effect that there had been favoritism in the Kelly matter I thought it was well to bring it up. However, I do not accept the reports in the press as against the statements made by the Minister of Justice. It is well that the public should know that my hon. friend found good and sufficient reason for the action he took, because although he states that Kelly had served twenty-one months,

* including the time he was awaiting trial and that spent in prison after sentence, one must not forget that the matter in which he was involved was a very serious one, and that if the public are led to believe that criminals who are found guilty of such offences as the one in question receive favourable treatment at the hands of public men for political considerations, they would lose confidence in the administration of justice. Personally, I must say that, having heard the explanation given by the minister and knowing the medical certificates which were sent to him, I do not hesitate to accept his statement in preference to the statements made in the press. The minister will not think I insist on getting the information for the pleasure of ventilating this matter before the public. It is well that the public should know that every man receives even-handed justice before his peers. While I am on this subject of ticket-of-leave, may I call the attention of the minister to another question-

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CON

Hugh Boulton Morphy

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. MORPHY:

Will the hon. gentleman permit me to interrupt? Will the Minister of Justice tell me how many Kellys got out

of the penitentiary last year, and give us a little of the history of the other two?

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CON

Charles Joseph Doherty (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. DOHERTY:

I must confess I do not keep a special register for the Kellys. At the moment I did not recall there were other Kellys who got out during the course of last year. "Kelly" is a name which is not rare. Perhaps the hon. gentleman will give me some more definite information.

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CON

Hugh Boulton Morphy

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. MORPHY:

The reason I ask the question is because I saw that there was a man named Kelly convicted on a charge of manslaughter, and owing to some laxity in the penitentiary another Kelly, who should be released, was not released, but the man who was convicted of manslaughter was released, although he should have been kept there for a long term of years. The Kelly who should have been released was, of course, released afterwards. I wanted to know if there were any more Kellys, and what peculiar charm there is about the name of Kelly that gives them a ground floor advantage in the penitentiary.

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CON

Charles Joseph Doherty (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. DOHERTY:

The other Kellys were Reillys.

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LIB

Rodolphe Lemieux

Liberal

Mr. LEMIEUX:

The other question to which I wished to refer is the dynamiting outrage in Montreal. According to the press reports, three of the culprits are ticket-of-leave men. Of course, a ticket-of-leave is never a certificate of virtue, but at the same time it is remarkable that three of those ticket-of-leave men should have been found acting in conjunction with the other dynamiters. Perhaps the minister is too lax in his methods, or perhaps his heart is too tender. I would not charge him with laxity, but, perhaps, he might be open to the suggestion of tender-heartedness. It is remarkable that Elie Lalumiere, although he may not have been a jailbird, was just nearing the jail. The minister will remember that this man's name wias very prominent in a famous case a few years ago, and that he was doing some very evil work in a certain election. However, I am referring only to the real jailbirds who were released under ticket-of-leave. Can the minister explain why there was a sudden exit from the penitentiary just at the proper time for these men to take part in this dynamiting outrage in Montreal?

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CON

Charles Joseph Doherty (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. DOHERTY:

With all respect, I must confess the question put by my hon. friend is a somewhat extraordinary one. In dealing with tickets-of-leave we endeavour to ascertain the past., we do not pretend to

prophesy for the future. My information is that only two of these men were ticket-of-leave men. '

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LIB

Rodolphe Lemieux

Liberal

Mr. LEMIEUX:

There may be only two ticket-of-leave men, but certainly another had "done time." Of course, I do not claim the minister is responsible for him.

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CON

Charles Joseph Doherty (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. DOHERTY:

As regards the other

two

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LIB
CON

Charles Joseph Doherty (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. DOHERTY:

-how they happened

to get out in time to do this I do not think I can say, except that they did it after they got out. Certainly I do not suppose the hon. gentleman desires to suggest that the idea of letting them out on ticket-of-leave was that they should engage in the commission of the crime.

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LIB
CON

Charles Joseph Doherty (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. DOHERTY:

A ticket-of-leave man is under the obligation to report monthly. With regard to the suggestion of tenderheartedness, I shall be very happy to furnish my hon. friend with a report of our operations under the Ticket-of-Leave Act. I am glad to say there are a large number of men allowed out on ticket-of-leave, and more glad to say that a very small percentage of the men released on ticket-of-leave forfeit their privilege. Everybody knows that a ticket-of-leave man committing an offence within the duration of his ticket-of-leave forfeits the time he had to serve when he got the ticket of leave, and has to return .to the penitentiary. The last time I had occasion to look at the figures, I saw that only from four per cent to five per cent of all those who obtained tickets-of-leave fell back into crime.

There are cases where they do. But m the case of these two criminals, after they had oeen released, they proved mcst unworthy of the clemency that had been extended to them. As to that we were not in a position to judge by anticipation. I have not now in mind the particular circumstances leading up to the sentence which they were undergoing when they were released, but I am informed that the sentences were not extremely severe. Moreover, at the time the recommendation was made, it was in contemplation that these men, who were soldiers, should be returned to their calling. Subsequently, the military authorities for some reason did not wish to take them back.

iMr. LEMIEUX: I see that the name of an officer, either of the Justice Department or of the Dominion Police,' is mentioned in connection with this dynamite case. I Tead the evidence yesterday in the press, and this man seems to have been a frequent visitor with Lalumifere at the meetings which were held and offered to procure arms for the other culprits. Perhaps it is too soon to speak of the case until the whole of the evidence has been given, but if it be true that an officer of the Dominion Police, or of the Justice Department, was connected with the affair in that way, it seems that it is not conducive to public order. If any officer incites a person to commit a crime he acts beyond his duty.

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CON

Charles Joseph Doherty (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. DOHERTY:

I am satisfied that no officer acting under the directions of Sir Percy Sherwood, Commissioner of Dominion Police, would have acted, with instructions, in such a way as to incite any one to commit a crime. If any such thing has taken place, I can assure my hon. friend that in due time it will be carefully looked into.

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LIB

Rodolphe Lemieux

Liberal

Mr. LEMIEUX:

I read the evidence of Tremblay, one of the witnesses yesterday- is it true that he is also accused?-and he stated most positively that at a meeting this officer, Desjardins, was present and told the culprit that he could get arms and weapons from the armoury. That is in the press of yesterday.

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LIB

Jacques Bureau

Liberal

Mr. BUREAU:

The Minister of Justice (Mr. Doherty) just now said that the hon. membeT for Rouville (Mr. Lemieux) would not suppose that anybody would try to get convicts out because he had any interest in getting them out, and that any such thing would be scandalous. It must be within the memory of the Minister of Justice that a celebrated convict and highway^ robber, who had held up the Canadian Pacific train at Mission Junction, got out of the British Columbia penitentiary. All the officers of the Justice Department at that time who had anything to do with the penitentiary not only were accused of having information about the contemplated escape, but were actually charged with having connived at getting the convict out of the penitentiary so as to share in certain Australian bonds which were supposed to have been stolen,

. although the bonds never existed. The name of the man was Bill Miner.

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CON

Charles Joseph Doherty (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. DOHERTY:

I do not think I have any responsibility for that.

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LIB

Jacques Bureau

Liberal

Mr. BUREAU:

I do not say the minister had but he was in the House and the Justice Department was under criticism at the time.

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CON

Charles Joseph Doherty (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. DOHERTY:

I think I have heard

the name.

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LIB

Jacques Bureau

Liberal

Mr. BUREAU:

il see an item here:

To increase the salary of Joseph Adolphe Renaud, K.C., legal officer, to $4,000, from April 1. 1917, $600.

I do not object to that, it is a well deserved increase and I do not think that any of the legal officers are overpaid in the Department of Justice. If the minister will allow me, I am going to take up another subject. The Quebec judges, in what [DOT]they call the rural districts, in. my estimation, are underpaid. I will take the district wihere I practice-Three Rivers. The judges are getting $5,000, while in Quebec and Montreal they are getting $7,000. The $7,000 paid to the Quebec and Montreal judges is not too much, 'but the $5,000 paid to the judges of Three Rivers is too little. I asked the attention of the Minister of Justice to this question once before, and one of the reasons that w.as given at that time why the judges in Montreal and Quebec were paid higher salaries was that the cost of living in Montreal and Quebec was higher. I do not think that reason stands good to-day. I call the attention of the minister to the extra wofk that devolves upon these judges in rural district and the amount of extra cost which is imposed upon them on account of their residence. In Montreal they have a very large law library which is at the disposal of the judges when they want to study a case. In the district where I live we have not such a library, for the reason that the fees that are paid by students who are called to the bar are generally paid in Montreal and Quebec. These students attend the universities of McGill and Laval in Montreal and Laval in Quebec, they are generally articled with Quebec or Montreal lawyers and most of them remain with the firms with which they have been .articled. In the Three Rivers district the judge has to subscribe for the law publications and he has to pay out of his own pocket for the text hooks he requires and which are not in our library and which we cannot afford to buy because we have not sufficient revenue. I maintain that more work is imposed upon- the judges in the rural districts than is imposed upon the judges in Montreal and Quebec. In Montreal you have the circuit court while in our district we have no such court. They sit as

a court of appeal that hears 'all municipal -appeals with regard to valuation rolls-, etc. They sit as a -court of appeal in all cases under the Fish and Game laws. In addition to that the Superior court judge acts -as ,an arbitrator. In o-ur district all expropriations under the provincial Railway Act, for transmission lines and for water-power development are heard before a judge of the Superior Court sitting .as an arbitrator. In view of the fact that our judges are overcrowded with work, would -it not be possible to put them on the same footing as the judges in Montreal and Quebec -and raise *their s-alaries fro-m $5,000 to $7,000? I think it is only -a matter of justice.

I am speaking for the district -in which I live with -the circumstances of which I am well acquainted. That district has developed far rnoTe rapidly than any other district in Quebec on account of the water powers located on the St. Maurice river and on account of the new industries which have been established there. At the time the two judges weTe -appointed, Shawinigan Falls was a town of probably

2.000 inhabitants. According to the last census, there are over 11,000 people there. At that time lands -along the St. Maurice river were considered valueless. To-day they are considered very valuable, and every- day more disputes arise. Furthermore, expropriations in connection with all these water-power developments create litigation. Grand'Mere, which had about

2.000 or 3,000 people, is now a town of about

10.000 or 12,000 people. Three Rivers at that time had about 12,000 inhabitants, and to-day it has over 22,000. Along the St. Maurice, Cap Madeleine, which had formerly 1,200 people, now has 4,000 or 5,000 owing to new industries established there. All these industries in these town create litigation under the Workmen's Compensation Act. These judges are put to greater expense than others, as they have no library accessible and have to purchase books for themselves. They should be put on the same footing as the others and receive $7,000 per year. I think that Three Rivers ought to be no longer counted as a rural district for judicial purposes.

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September 13, 1917