September 12, 1917

CON

Arthur Meighen (Solicitor General of Canada; Minister of Mines; Secretary of State of Canada)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. MEIGHEN:

The returning officer always has to do thait. Possibly he obtains [DOT]the necessary information by simply examining the list. Now, howeveT, he may have to decide whether on that nomination

paper there are 25 men duly entitled to vote-subject, of course, to whatever judicial review there may be afterwards. That task may be slightly more difficult than it was before, but I do not think that any candidate would have difficulty in seeing to it that there were on his nomination paper at least 25 who were qualified to vote. As to the second point raised by my hon. friend regarding the necessity for provision against the tearing down of the lists, section 258 of the Act as it now stands, and as it will stand, provides severe penalties for such an offence. As to the furnishing of copies, I think that the hon. gentleman's suggestion is a reasonable one. There is no difficulty now about getting the lists to the candidates. I have asked that an amendment be prepared to provide that the enumerators shall furnish each candidate with a list.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   THE HOUSE IN COMMITTEE ON THE WARTIME ELECTIONS ACT-RULE 17B APPLIED.
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LIB

Frank Broadstreet Carvell

Liberal

Mr. CARVELL:

I have read this Bill through with a great deal of care; I spent an hour this morning in my room trying to digest it. I do not understand how in the world the thing is going to be worked out. In the first place you appoint as enumerator some political friend.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   THE HOUSE IN COMMITTEE ON THE WARTIME ELECTIONS ACT-RULE 17B APPLIED.
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CON

Arthur Meighen (Solicitor General of Canada; Minister of Mines; Secretary of State of Canada)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. MEIGHEN:

The Bill does not say that.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   THE HOUSE IN COMMITTEE ON THE WARTIME ELECTIONS ACT-RULE 17B APPLIED.
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LIB

Frank Broadstreet Carvell

Liberal

Mr. CARVELL:

That is what it means; the man appointed as enumerator will be the most offensive partisan in the district.

1 know what I am talking about so far as New Brunswick is concerned. Part 2 of the Act was put in our hands only at half-past three this afternoon, and after trying to digest it the best way I can I find that this partisan goes round and makes up his list privately. We have nothing to say about it; we are not entitled to be represented. Ten days before the election-I believe the minister is going to make it fifteen;-the lists are put up. The enumerator gives notice that he is going to silt somewhere two hours eacn day-it may be in his kitchen-and he is to say whether this person shall be added to or that person removed from the list. Why not provide that an affidavit or declaration shall be necessary upon which the enumerator .must act? I can pick out the men in my county who will be enumerators men who for ten years deliberately kept on the list persons who never resided in New Brunswick. They brought these men across the boundary line in automobiles, rushed them to the polls, perjured them and then sent them back to the United States. These men have been the revisers of our lists in

New Brunswick in many cases. Thank God a change has been made and these men no longer have the right to make the lists. Now .my hon. friend is putting into the hands of these same people the right to make up the lists-and the Lord help any Liberal candidate who is trying to run in some portions of New Brunswick df these people have that right. If you provided that the municipal authorities should make the list, then you would have a board of three men and you would get justice. Or if you provided that the enumerator should take the affidavit of the applicant or of some other person that the party is or is not entitled to he added to the list, the condition would not be so bad. But it is wrong to leave it to the ipse dixit of this person whether a man shall or shall not go on the list. Worse than that: this man gives notice that he is going to sit some place on election day-and that place is just as liable to be five miles away as it is to be at the polling booth. He sits there .and he has the right to make voters all day long. A woman comes in, tells her story, and if he wants to do so he gives her a certificate that she has the right to vote. If he does not want to give her such a certificate he gives a certificate, of refusal and when she votes her ballot is placed in .an envelope. The matter is absolutely in the hands of this partisan who sits as judge on election day.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   THE HOUSE IN COMMITTEE ON THE WARTIME ELECTIONS ACT-RULE 17B APPLIED.
Permalink
CON

Arthur Meighen (Solicitor General of Canada; Minister of Mines; Secretary of State of Canada)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. MEIGHEN:

Subject to appeal.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   THE HOUSE IN COMMITTEE ON THE WARTIME ELECTIONS ACT-RULE 17B APPLIED.
Permalink
LIB

Frank Broadstreet Carvell

Liberal

Mr. CARVELL:

What is the good of an appeal? If the enumerator has a suspicion the woman will vote as he wants her to, be gives her the necessary certificate; in that case her ballot goes into the box and is counted. But if he does not want her to get the vote, he gives her a certificate of refusal, form W-2 in the Bill. On that certificate she has the right to vote, but her vote does not go into the ballot box; it goes into an envelope. Later on, if a candidate is willing to put up $2,000 or $3,000 to thresh the matter out before a judge, she will probably have her vote counted. Otherwise she cannot get it. This system may work out in the West where 'the people know something about it, but this is the most horrible piece of legislation, so far a.s elections in eastern Canada are concerned, that has ever been proposed in my day. I am not drawing up any fanciful objections. During the last nine years there has never been in my constituency an election in which men., who do not reside in New Brunswick, and w.ho have no right to vote, have not been kept on the list.

They have 'been brought over from the United States in automobiles, or in trains in the winter time, and voted, then they have been immediately whisked away. As there was not a Liberal magistrate in the county, you could noit arrest those men. Dozens and dozens of votes have been stolen in that way in every election during the last nine years.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   THE HOUSE IN COMMITTEE ON THE WARTIME ELECTIONS ACT-RULE 17B APPLIED.
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CON

William Humphrey Bennett

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. W. H. BENNETT:

Who has made

up this list that, according to the hon. gentleman, is such an infamous one?

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   THE HOUSE IN COMMITTEE ON THE WARTIME ELECTIONS ACT-RULE 17B APPLIED.
Permalink
LIB

Frank Broadstreet Carvell

Liberal

Mr. CARVELL:

Tory politicians.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   THE HOUSE IN COMMITTEE ON THE WARTIME ELECTIONS ACT-RULE 17B APPLIED.
Permalink
CON

William Humphrey Bennett

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. W. H. BENNETT:

What particular Tory politician makes up the list in each county in Now Brunswick?

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   THE HOUSE IN COMMITTEE ON THE WARTIME ELECTIONS ACT-RULE 17B APPLIED.
Permalink
LIB

Frank Broadstreet Carvell

Liberal

Mr. CARVELL:

One of them who

is appointed by the Government, is the chairman of the board. What

that man cannot do about voters'

lists is in many cases, not worth , knowing. I am giving actual facts. In the local election of 1912 in New Brunswick we deliberately challenged, at one polling division, either eight or nine men who did not reside in New Brunswick and had not resided in that province for years, hut whose names had been kept on the lists. They took the oath and voted, and then took an automobile and got ouj; of the country inside of two hours, and there was no way of getting at them.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   THE HOUSE IN COMMITTEE ON THE WARTIME ELECTIONS ACT-RULE 17B APPLIED.
Permalink
CON

William Humphrey Bennett

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. W. H. BENNETT:

Who are the officials other than the sheriff?

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   THE HOUSE IN COMMITTEE ON THE WARTIME ELECTIONS ACT-RULE 17B APPLIED.
Permalink
LIB

Frank Broadstreet Carvell

Liberal

Mr. CARVELL:

I did not say the sheriff.

Mr. W, H. BENNETT: I thought the sheriff was one.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   THE HOUSE IN COMMITTEE ON THE WARTIME ELECTIONS ACT-RULE 17B APPLIED.
Permalink
LIB

Frank Broadstreet Carvell

Liberal

Mr. CARVELL:

I would trust the sheriff, no matter whether he was a Liberal or a Conservative. We have Liberal sheriffs and Conservative sheriffs. We have had them under both regimes. So far as sheriffs are concerned, we have not been treated very badly. I would trust any sheriff in New Brunswick to make up a list. If my hon. friend could devise some means of appointing sheriffs in New Brunswick, I would be perfectly satisfied.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   THE HOUSE IN COMMITTEE ON THE WARTIME ELECTIONS ACT-RULE 17B APPLIED.
Permalink
CON

William Humphrey Bennett

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. W. H. BENNETT:

I was asking the hon.. gentleman for information, because I do not know who makes up those lists. Who are the three officials?

, Mr. CARVELL: The lists are made up

by the two municipal councillors of the parish. I suppose that would correspond with what you call a municipality in Ontario. The word "municipality" in my

province means a county. There are a number of parishes corresponding to townships, and there are two men elected usually biannually, who aTe called county councillors and those two men, together with a third man appointed by the Government, make up the voters' lists for that parish. Those two men are usually pretty fair men, because they represent the people, but the trouble i6 with the third man appointed by the Government. He is the chairman of the board, and no list is of any value unless it is signed by him. The other two men might make up a perfect list, but if the chairman does not want to sign it, it is of no value. That practically means that the list is made up by the chairman appointed by the Government.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   THE HOUSE IN COMMITTEE ON THE WARTIME ELECTIONS ACT-RULE 17B APPLIED.
Permalink
CON

William Humphrey Bennett

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. W. H. BENNETT:

What time of the year was that list made up last?

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   THE HOUSE IN COMMITTEE ON THE WARTIME ELECTIONS ACT-RULE 17B APPLIED.
Permalink
LIB

Frank Broadstreet Carvell

Liberal

Mr. CARVELL:

October, 1916.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   THE HOUSE IN COMMITTEE ON THE WARTIME ELECTIONS ACT-RULE 17B APPLIED.
Permalink
CON

William Humphrey Bennett

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. W. H. BENNETT:

Will that be the list to be used in New Brunswick in the coming election if it is held before December?

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   THE HOUSE IN COMMITTEE ON THE WARTIME ELECTIONS ACT-RULE 17B APPLIED.
Permalink
LIB

Frank Broadstreet Carvell

Liberal

Mr. CARVELL:

That will be the list

on which the coming election will be held if the election is held at any time before the second or third day of March.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   THE HOUSE IN COMMITTEE ON THE WARTIME ELECTIONS ACT-RULE 17B APPLIED.
Permalink
CON

William Humphrey Bennett

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. W. H. BENNETT:

Will that list be generally acceptable so far as fairness is 'concerned?

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   THE HOUSE IN COMMITTEE ON THE WARTIME ELECTIONS ACT-RULE 17B APPLIED.
Permalink
LIB

Frank Broadstreet Carvell

Liberal

Mr. CARVELL:

Yes it is the law of the land, and we shall take it.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   THE HOUSE IN COMMITTEE ON THE WARTIME ELECTIONS ACT-RULE 17B APPLIED.
Permalink

September 12, 1917