September 12, 1917

LIB

Louis Audet Lapointe

Liberal

Mr. L. A. LAPOINTE:

I had the honour

to place in your hands an amendment.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   THE HOUSE IN COMMITTEE ON THE WARTIME ELECTIONS ACT-RULE 17B APPLIED.
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CON

Joseph Hormisdas Rainville (Deputy Speaker and Chair of Committees of the Whole of the House of Commons)

Conservative (1867-1942)

The CHAIRMAN:

Shall clause 2 as

amended be adopted?

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   THE HOUSE IN COMMITTEE ON THE WARTIME ELECTIONS ACT-RULE 17B APPLIED.
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?

Some Hon. MEMBERS:

Carried. Lost.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   THE HOUSE IN COMMITTEE ON THE WARTIME ELECTIONS ACT-RULE 17B APPLIED.
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CON

Arthur Meighen (Solicitor General of Canada; Minister of Mines; Secretary of State of Canada)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. MEIGHEN:

If I may be permitted, the point taken by the hon. member for St.

James (Mr. Lapointe) is well taken. He submitted an amendment to this clause, which I think should be put first. The amendment was to effect that the hour for closing the polls be eight o'clock instead of five.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   THE HOUSE IN COMMITTEE ON THE WARTIME ELECTIONS ACT-RULE 17B APPLIED.
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LIB

Charles Murphy

Liberal

Mr. MURPHY:

Generally?

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   THE HOUSE IN COMMITTEE ON THE WARTIME ELECTIONS ACT-RULE 17B APPLIED.
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CON

Arthur Meighen (Solicitor General of Canada; Minister of Mines; Secretary of State of Canada)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. MEIGHEN:

Yes.

Amendment, Mr. Lapointe, negatived on division, yeas 26, nays 50.

Section 2 as amended agreed to on division.

Section 3 as amended agreed to on division.

Schedule agreed to on division.

Title agreed to on division.

Bill reported, and amendments read the first time.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   THE HOUSE IN COMMITTEE ON THE WARTIME ELECTIONS ACT-RULE 17B APPLIED.
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LIB

William Pugsley

Liberal

Mr. PUGSLEY:

Before this report is

acted upon I desire to make some remarks in regard to it. I do so under rule 56, which provides that after report the Bill is open to debate and amendment before it is ordered for a third reading.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   THE HOUSE IN COMMITTEE ON THE WARTIME ELECTIONS ACT-RULE 17B APPLIED.
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CON

Arthur Meighen (Solicitor General of Canada; Minister of Mines; Secretary of State of Canada)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. MEIGHEN:

I submit that this rule was overruled by the rule which was adopted in 1913. The new rule supersedes the old, because it specifically de-2 a.m. dares what motions are debatable. Of course, all that is before the House now is the motion for the receiving of the report. .

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   THE HOUSE IN COMMITTEE ON THE WARTIME ELECTIONS ACT-RULE 17B APPLIED.
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LIB

William Pugsley

Liberal

Mr. PUGSLEY:

No, the report is received.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   THE HOUSE IN COMMITTEE ON THE WARTIME ELECTIONS ACT-RULE 17B APPLIED.
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CON

Arthur Meighen (Solicitor General of Canada; Minister of Mines; Secretary of State of Canada)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. MEIGHEN:

If the report is received, the motion for concurrence is not debatable.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   THE HOUSE IN COMMITTEE ON THE WARTIME ELECTIONS ACT-RULE 17B APPLIED.
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CON

Edgar Nelson Rhodes (Speaker of the House of Commons)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. SPEAKER:

The honourable gentleman could not properly speak on the motion that the amendments be read the second time and concurred in. According to the decision which I gave in the House not long ago, under rule 17A that motion is not debatable.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   THE HOUSE IN COMMITTEE ON THE WARTIME ELECTIONS ACT-RULE 17B APPLIED.
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LIB

William Pugsley

Liberal

Mr. PUGSLEY:

I did not know that

Your Honour had so ruled.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   THE HOUSE IN COMMITTEE ON THE WARTIME ELECTIONS ACT-RULE 17B APPLIED.
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CON

Edgar Nelson Rhodes (Speaker of the House of Commons)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. SPEAKER:

Does the honourable

member rise to a point of order?

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   THE HOUSE IN COMMITTEE ON THE WARTIME ELECTIONS ACT-RULE 17B APPLIED.
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LIB

William Pugsley

Liberal

Mr. PUGSLEY:

Yes. The question is

one of great importance, affecting the rights of the minority; therefore, I bring it specially to Your Honour's notice. Rule 56 specifically deals with-

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   THE HOUSE IN COMMITTEE ON THE WARTIME ELECTIONS ACT-RULE 17B APPLIED.
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?

Some hon. MEMBERS:

Order.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   THE HOUSE IN COMMITTEE ON THE WARTIME ELECTIONS ACT-RULE 17B APPLIED.
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LIB

William Pugsley

Liberal

Mr. PUGSLEY:

I think your honour

will say that I am in order.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   THE HOUSE IN COMMITTEE ON THE WARTIME ELECTIONS ACT-RULE 17B APPLIED.
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CON

Edgar Nelson Rhodes (Speaker of the House of Commons)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. SPEAKER:

I am permitting the

member for St. John to make some Remarks on the point of order.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   THE HOUSE IN COMMITTEE ON THE WARTIME ELECTIONS ACT-RULE 17B APPLIED.
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LIB

William Pugsley

Liberal

Mr. PUGSLEY:

It is true, as the Solicitor General suggests, that we have rule 17A, but we have also a special rule, rule 56, bearing upon a particular point. Rule 56, which has not been repealed, says :

All amendments made In committee are reported by the chairman to the House, which shall receive the same forthwith. After report the Bill is open to debate and amendment, before it is ordered for a third reading. But when a Bill is reported without amendment it is forthwith ordered to be read a third time at such time as may be appointed by the House.

It is argued by the Solicitor General that that rule is inconsistent with rule 17 A. When we have a rule dealing with general matters and also a special rule stating what shall take place in a particular instance, that special rule would not be overruled by the general rule. If the House had intended when it adopted rule 17 A to repeal rule 56 it would have done so. But it did not do so; therefore, rule 56 is still in force. I think that if there is any doubt in the matter Your Honour should decide in favour of rule 56, because the rights of the minority in this House are very much restricted. It should be borne in mind also that this Government, by virtue of its majority, can declare anything to be carried. I await Your Honour's interpretation of the rule in full confidence that the House will support your decision. It seems to me to be clear that under rule 56 the Bill is now open to debate and amendment.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   THE HOUSE IN COMMITTEE ON THE WARTIME ELECTIONS ACT-RULE 17B APPLIED.
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CON

Edgar Nelson Rhodes (Speaker of the House of Commons)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. SPEAKER:

The point of order raised by the member for St. John is, indeed, a most important one; I have had occasion to give the matter consideration within the past few days. As a matter of fact, the point has already been settled by decision of the House, to be found on page 5374 of Hansard of August 29, 1917. Rule 56 is in conflict with rule 17 A, but rule 56 was in the rule book and was prior in point of time to rule 17 A, which, overriding ail other rules, was designed specifically for the purpose of restricting debate. If the interpretation placed upon the rule by the member for St. John were sustained, the express object which the House had in mind when it enacted rule 17 A would be defeated. Notwithstanding that, I am cognizant of the import of the point raised by my hon.

friend. It is very clear in my mind that rule 17 A must prevail; that it must override rule 56 and that, therefore, it is not open to the hon. gentleman to enter into a discussion at this stage of the proceedings. In any case the discussion could take place only on the motion which I now propose to put: that the amendments be now read the second time and concurred in; and under rule 17 A that motion is not debatable.

It is moved by Mr. Meighen, seconded by Mr. Hazen, that the said amendments be now read the second time and concurred in. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   THE HOUSE IN COMMITTEE ON THE WARTIME ELECTIONS ACT-RULE 17B APPLIED.
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?

Some hon. MEMBERS:

Carried.

Seme hon. MEMBERS: Lost.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   THE HOUSE IN COMMITTEE ON THE WARTIME ELECTIONS ACT-RULE 17B APPLIED.
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September 12, 1917