August 28, 1917

CON

Herménégilde Boulay

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BOULAY (translation):

Would my hon. friend kindly tell me when the gentlemen. he is alluding to has been knighted?

Topic:   CANADIAN RAILWAY SITUATION.
Subtopic:   CONSIDERATION OF CANADIAN NORTHERN RAILWAY BILL RESUMED IN COMMITTEE-RULE 1TB APPLIED.
Permalink
LIB

David Arthur Lafortune

Liberal

Mr. LAFORTUINE (translation):

I regret it, but I do not keep an almanac of those things', I wonder why my hon. friend puts me suclh a question. Is it for curiosity's sake? Informations are generally asked by people who don't know a thing, but such is not the case with my hon. friend, who must know what is going on among his good friends.

Topic:   CANADIAN RAILWAY SITUATION.
Subtopic:   CONSIDERATION OF CANADIAN NORTHERN RAILWAY BILL RESUMED IN COMMITTEE-RULE 1TB APPLIED.
Permalink
CON

Herménégilde Boulay

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BOULAY (translation):

Have not these gentlemen been knighted under the late administration?

Mr. LAFORTUiNiE (translation): My hon. friend seems to be well informed. The hon. gentlemen who spoke before me have repeatedly reproached the Minister of Finance and his friends with refusing to produce the list of tthe debenture holders, stating that this had nothing to do with the case. In our province, when a man who is put a question refuses to answer, it is the same as if he pleaded guilty. When men of such a high standing as tlhe Minister of Finance and his colleagues refuse to show the list of the debenture holders, it looks had, it squints, as we say. When they take the trouble of saying that the total amount is $600,483,280.39; it's the 39 cents that amuses me; thirty-nine cents! How important that is! And we ask them the list

of the debenture holders. No, do they answer, that would take too much time, we would have too much trouble in getting it. Well, gentlemen, am I wrong in suspecting there is a snake in the grasis? Am I not right in isuspecting that we would find in that same list certain names which would compromise some of the Government's friends or of their relatives, such as fathers, mothers, brothers, sisters mothers-in-law, fathers-in-law, brothers-in-law, sisters-in-law, uncles, aunts, nephews, nieces or cousins of either sex? Why not give, Mr. Chairman, to the people, represented by the .member to your left as by those to your right, tlhe exact list of all those holding such debentures? Because it would be too incriminating to do so. One cannot draw any other conclusion. And if I fake the given word of the bon. member for Calgary that these bribers, these bandits have distributed stock right and left, to Peter, Dick and Harry, it is readily conceived that the publication of such a list would perhaps compromise a great number of gentlemen who hold such debentures; but when the people will be called upon to judge the conduct of those who are now in power, there will .be no gag. Ib my county, where we will discuss this question, you will not be there, Mr. Chairman, with your gag. Everyone will speak, and you will not be always watching the clock to call time.

Woe to the members who shall vote this transaction ! iWIhat says Lord Sbaughnessy, not a friend but a political adversary, the most qualified, the most upright, the most honourable and the most competent man on the subject you can find in the whole Dominion? What does the president of the Bank of Montreal .tell us, and what do say the managers of all our important industries who have .condemned that transaction?. Are they not worth as much as the hon. member for Calgary, who is ever ready to cry out against everyone, who has found fault with all our friends and who has just voted to-day in favour of a measure which he had so forcibly denounced?

When I said, in 1913-1914, that that transaction was a disastrous one, I was perfectly right, and when I saw, in those days, the hon. member for Red Deer (Mr. Clark) who had the floor after me, speak for two hours, condemn the Government, say all kinds of things against the Government- he spoke two long hours to prevent the $35,000,000 vote-and when I see him, today, bestowing praise upon the other side,

I say: how much the times have changed, how changing is this gentleman's polities! After having said all he did say against the _

hon. members to your right, after having supported Ifor so many years the right hon. leader of the Opposition (Sir Wilfrid Laurier) and then to come back and insult him by calling him the St. John the Baptist's lamb ! That man has fallen a great deal in my .consideration. Be Conservatives, be Liberals, what you please, but if you do not share my opinion, the opinion of your leader, you .have not the right to abuse him, to insult him, as the hon. member for Red Deer has just done.

The hon. member for Maisonneuve (Mr. Verville) has made a remark which I consider too broad. 'He will allow me to draw attention to what he has said, that gold controls Governments. I do make one exception. Gold has never controlled tihe late administration, gold has never in any way influenced the right hon. Sir Wilfrid Laurier; gold may perhaps, control the present Government, but the late administration came out victorious in all it undertook; it has honorably fallen, and never has any one had. occasion to say against Sir [DOT]Wilfrid Laurier's administration that gold or money, favours or honours have ever influenced it.

We have struggled to prevent this grant of $35,000,000, we were unsuccessful. From Monday mom until midnight on Saturday, we slept and ate in the Honse. That law was voted in the House, after the gag had been imposed upon us; hut, fortunately, there was in those days a Liberal Senate, a Senate composed of distinguished and serious men., of whom the majority were Liberals!, .and the Government could not carry away from the country that sum of $35,000,-

000. (But times have changed; new men have been recently appointed to the Senate *where they form the majority. And with these new members, they have succeeded in .passing the conscription Act, as they will be successful in having them vote this sale o.f the Canadian Northern Railway. There is no doubt about it. It is all prepared in advance, the deed is already drawn up, signed and sealed, and if it is not registered, it shall soon be.

Where are these millions to go, where will go the Government millions for that stock which, has been declared worthless? We do not know, and the hon. Minister of Finance does not want to tell us.

When something is to be done and there is something to de-dbct, when people refuse to speak, to play above hoard, I am airaid of such things, yes, I am afraid of such transactions; I like a man who plays an open hand, I like an administration that

has nothing to .suppress, that has nothing to conceal, that submits to the House, to the country, all it knows; and the reasons given by the Minister of Finance, in my humble opinion, as the hon. member for Kings, P.EjI. (Mr. Hughes) who spoke before me, has said, are that the transaction is not genuine, it is not a first-class transaction.

A MEMBER: Time, time.

Topic:   CANADIAN RAILWAY SITUATION.
Subtopic:   CONSIDERATION OF CANADIAN NORTHERN RAILWAY BILL RESUMED IN COMMITTEE-RULE 1TB APPLIED.
Permalink
LIB

David Arthur Lafortune

Liberal

Mr. LAFORTUNE (translation):

Mr. Chairman, if my time is up, I will immediately take my seat, for I ask favours from no one. Is my time up, Air. Chairman?

Mr. RAlINVILLE (translation): The hon. member has spoken one minute over, butiMr. LAFORTUNE (translation): If my time has expired, I do not want any favour, I withdraw, delighted to bow to you.

Topic:   CANADIAN RAILWAY SITUATION.
Subtopic:   CONSIDERATION OF CANADIAN NORTHERN RAILWAY BILL RESUMED IN COMMITTEE-RULE 1TB APPLIED.
Permalink
LIB

Edmond Proulx

Liberal

Mr. PROULX (Prescott) (translation):

Topic:   CANADIAN RAILWAY SITUATION.
Subtopic:   CONSIDERATION OF CANADIAN NORTHERN RAILWAY BILL RESUMED IN COMMITTEE-RULE 1TB APPLIED.
Permalink
CON

Hugh Boulton Morphy

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. MORPHY:

I would like to know the name of the paper the hon. gentleman has been reading for the last fifteen minutes. 3214

Topic:   CANADIAN RAILWAY SITUATION.
Subtopic:   CONSIDERATION OF CANADIAN NORTHERN RAILWAY BILL RESUMED IN COMMITTEE-RULE 1TB APPLIED.
Permalink
LIB

Edmond Proulx

Liberal

Mr. PROULX:

The paper is Le Devoir of Montreal and the writer is Mr. Henri Bourassa. If the hon. member for North Perth (Mr. Morphy) understood the article the must .admit that the writer must have studied the question very fully.

Some of my colleagues have pointed out that it was a daring injustice towards the province of Quebec to hold her conjointly liable, with the other provinces, for the obligations the latter have assumed: towards the Canadian Northern. And this remark is justified, when we find that obligations to the total amount of $107,514,642.27 have been guaranteed by the different provinces, while the province of Quebec did wisely stand .aloof.

It has been suggested, the other day, that instead of entrusting .an arbitration committee with the estimation of this capital stock, it would be better to submit the matter to the Exchequer court. Last year, when the Government wanted a maximum valuation fixed for the Quebec and Saguenay, the question was laid before the Exchequer court; but, as the latter did not render a decision favourable to the Government and, more particularly, to the. member for Montmorency .and Charlevoix (Sir Rodolphe Forget), the Government dad not think it wise to go back to the same sign. Now, they want us to believe, that this arbitration will be absolutely fair, for all the interested par-ties, because Sir William Meredith, the (Chief Justice of the province of Ontario, shall be asked to give his decision upon that transaction; when actually, the Government's object is to favour tbe holders of these. 60 per cent of the capital stock, the greatest part of which is in the hands of the promoters of this. line. It might perhaps be relevant, at this point, to recall the. fact that the latter will also have the choosing of the other commissioner. When, the Government have had an important commission to .appoint, they have always, like the Ontario Government, resorted to the Chief Justice of the province, Sir William Meredith, may be possessed of a deep legal science, he may thoroughly know the jurisprudence of the country, but when, it comes to a railway matter, would not another party, another railroad president, Lord Sh.aughne.ssy, for instance be more competent to determine the value of the capital stock of any company whatever, for, in such a case, he. must rely upon the present and the future receipts of the company? There are other considerations I would, like to offer to this

House, but I find myself compiled to omit them, for I am told that my allotted time is up. Tn the name of my constituents, in the name of the province of Ontario, I strongly protest against this measure, because it is a legal brigandage, because it will cost, from the start the sum of $30,000,000, $40,000,000, even perhaps $50,000,000 and we shall receive capital stock which, according to the Government's commission, represents no value -at .all. [DOT]

I was forgetting, Mr. Chairman, that in this House to-night, might overrides rght, therefore I will speak no longer on this subject.

Topic:   CANADIAN RAILWAY SITUATION.
Subtopic:   CONSIDERATION OF CANADIAN NORTHERN RAILWAY BILL RESUMED IN COMMITTEE-RULE 1TB APPLIED.
Permalink
LIB

Marie Joseph Demers

Liberal

Mt. JOSEPH DEMERS (St. John and Iberville) (translation):

tions and o-f revolt against the autocracy that has reigned here in Ottawa, for the few years past. I have already stated that I would not let myself be gagged and, therefore, I take my seat.

Topic:   CANADIAN RAILWAY SITUATION.
Subtopic:   CONSIDERATION OF CANADIAN NORTHERN RAILWAY BILL RESUMED IN COMMITTEE-RULE 1TB APPLIED.
Permalink
LIB

Arthur Lachance

Liberal

Mir. ARTHUR LACHANCE (Quebec Centre) (translation):

Topic:   CANADIAN RAILWAY SITUATION.
Subtopic:   CONSIDERATION OF CANADIAN NORTHERN RAILWAY BILL RESUMED IN COMMITTEE-RULE 1TB APPLIED.
Permalink
CON

Albert Sévigny (Minister of Inland Revenue)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Hon. Mr. SEVIGNY (translation):

Will my hon. friend allow me a question?

Topic:   CANADIAN RAILWAY SITUATION.
Subtopic:   CONSIDERATION OF CANADIAN NORTHERN RAILWAY BILL RESUMED IN COMMITTEE-RULE 1TB APPLIED.
Permalink
LIB

Arthur Lachance

Liberal

Mr. LACHANCE (translation):

Certainly.

Topic:   CANADIAN RAILWAY SITUATION.
Subtopic:   CONSIDERATION OF CANADIAN NORTHERN RAILWAY BILL RESUMED IN COMMITTEE-RULE 1TB APPLIED.
Permalink
CON

Albert Sévigny (Minister of Inland Revenue)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Hon. Mr. SEVIGNY (translation):

Would my hon. friend rather see the Government advancing, this year, a sum- of fifteen o-r twenty -million dollars in order to meet the -needs of the Canadian Northern?

Would my hon. friend, who does not approve -the measure now before the House, be disposed to recommend that the Government grant, -a sum, let us say of $25,000,000, or would the hon, member be dispo-sed to do what the Government did three years ago? My -hon. friend understands the question.

Topic:   CANADIAN RAILWAY SITUATION.
Subtopic:   CONSIDERATION OF CANADIAN NORTHERN RAILWAY BILL RESUMED IN COMMITTEE-RULE 1TB APPLIED.
Permalink
LIB

Arthur Lachance

Liberal

Mr. LACHANCE (translation):

I -may reply to- -the hon. minister that the question is a very simple one in our opinion, -it ie that we have here -an Act, and if the Government pretend they want the nationalization-

.Several MEMBERS: Order, order! Vote, Vote. Yout time is'up.

Topic:   CANADIAN RAILWAY SITUATION.
Subtopic:   CONSIDERATION OF CANADIAN NORTHERN RAILWAY BILL RESUMED IN COMMITTEE-RULE 1TB APPLIED.
Permalink
LIB

Arthur Lachance

Liberal

Mr. LACHANCE (translation):

I will therefore tell the -hon. minister that I have laid down, at the very opening of my remarks, the principle upon which I intended

to give my observations. I say that the Government have it now in their power to answer the question he has just put to me, without^ spending a single cent-

Topic:   CANADIAN RAILWAY SITUATION.
Subtopic:   CONSIDERATION OF CANADIAN NORTHERN RAILWAY BILL RESUMED IN COMMITTEE-RULE 1TB APPLIED.
Permalink
?

Several MEMBERS:

Order, ordeT! Vote, vote. Your time is up.

Topic:   CANADIAN RAILWAY SITUATION.
Subtopic:   CONSIDERATION OF CANADIAN NORTHERN RAILWAY BILL RESUMED IN COMMITTEE-RULE 1TB APPLIED.
Permalink
CON

Joseph Hormisdas Rainville (Deputy Speaker and Chair of Committees of the Whole of the House of Commons)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. RAINVILLE (Chairman):

The hon. member having been interrupted by the hon. minister of Inland Revenue (Mr. Sevigny), it as only proper that the hon. member should have time to conclude his remarks.

Topic:   CANADIAN RAILWAY SITUATION.
Subtopic:   CONSIDERATION OF CANADIAN NORTHERN RAILWAY BILL RESUMED IN COMMITTEE-RULE 1TB APPLIED.
Permalink
LIB

Arthur Lachance

Liberal

Mr. LACHANCE:

I was then saying, Mr. Chairman, to conclude my remarks that for me the situation is rather foggy ; we do see, in the background, large financial institutions, we do see banks, big capitalists, investment associations and trusts of every denomination, all restlessly active and lying in wait for these millions; but, it is unfortunate that the Government did not want to assist in disentangling the occult ramifications of all this transaction and in letting the public know who wall receive this money first, and who will get it later. Nevertheless, there remains an undeniable, self-evident fact: it is that the Government are going to pay $60,000,000, when, under the Act of 1914 they would not have to give one single cent.

Therefore under such circumstances, I [DOT]believe it is my duty to vote against the proposed Act.

Topic:   CANADIAN RAILWAY SITUATION.
Subtopic:   CONSIDERATION OF CANADIAN NORTHERN RAILWAY BILL RESUMED IN COMMITTEE-RULE 1TB APPLIED.
Permalink
CON

Joseph Elijah Armstrong

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. J. E. ARMSTRONG:

Mr. Chairman- The CHAIRMAN: It is two o'clock. The question is on clause 1. Shall clause 1 be carried?

Topic:   CANADIAN RAILWAY SITUATION.
Subtopic:   CONSIDERATION OF CANADIAN NORTHERN RAILWAY BILL RESUMED IN COMMITTEE-RULE 1TB APPLIED.
Permalink
?

Some hon. MEMBERS:

Carried.

Topic:   CANADIAN RAILWAY SITUATION.
Subtopic:   CONSIDERATION OF CANADIAN NORTHERN RAILWAY BILL RESUMED IN COMMITTEE-RULE 1TB APPLIED.
Permalink
?

Some hon. MEMBERS:

No.

Section agreed to on division; yeas 63, nays 36.

On section 2-Transfer of shares:

Topic:   CANADIAN RAILWAY SITUATION.
Subtopic:   CONSIDERATION OF CANADIAN NORTHERN RAILWAY BILL RESUMED IN COMMITTEE-RULE 1TB APPLIED.
Permalink

August 28, 1917