June 25, 1917

LIB

Edward Walter Nesbitt

Liberal

Mr. NESBITT:

I suggest that we let the Bill stand and let these gentlemen get together.

Topic:   TORONTO, HAMILTON AND. BUFFALO RAILWAY COMPANY.
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CON

Gordon Crooks Wilson

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. G. C. WILSON:

I have tried that three times already.

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CON

Richard Blain

Conservative (1867-1942)

The CHAIRMAN (Mr. Blain):

The committee will notice in the first section of the Bill, which I have just read, a change was made in the date; instead of extending it for the full period it has been extended only until 1922, that is an extension of five years.

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LIB

Edward Walter Nesbitt

Liberal

Mr. NESBITT:

Is that one of the clauses to which the hon. member for Hamilton objects?

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CON

Richard Blain

Conservative (1867-1942)

The CHAIRMAN (Mr. Blain):

That is the clause now before the committee. The hon. member for Hamilton moves that this clause be struck out, along with another clause that is to come later, clause 2.

Topic:   TORONTO, HAMILTON AND. BUFFALO RAILWAY COMPANY.
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LIB

William F. Carroll

Liberal

Mr. CARROLL:

Would not that kill the Bill altogether?

Topic:   TORONTO, HAMILTON AND. BUFFALO RAILWAY COMPANY.
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LIB

Edward Walter Nesbitt

Liberal

Mr. NESBITT:

We do not know anything about the agreement. The members of the Railway Committee who were present when it was discussed no doubt know all about it, but unfortunately I had to go to another committee on that day. I think we had better allow the Bill to stand till we see if we cannot get some more information.

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CON

Thomas Joseph Stewart

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. T. J. STEWART:

I am a little surprised at the movement to put the Bill through. No one has had the courage to say that my contention that the committee had no right to make, the amendment. Then why should anyone try to shove something through that has no right to go through? Why not allow the Bill to stand over until to-night in order that it may be looked into?

Topic:   TORONTO, HAMILTON AND. BUFFALO RAILWAY COMPANY.
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LIB

William F. Carroll

Liberal

Mr. CARROLL:

If I remember rightly, this Bill has been7 before the committee at five or six sittings, and I do not think our allowing it to stand over until to-night or for two weeks will get us any further, because the parties who could not agree in the committee after five or six sittings are not likely to come together now. As to the legal question which the hon. member for Hamilton brings up, if this Parliament has * the right to extend the agreement for twenty-nine years, as the company are asking, I, as a layman, would say that we certainly had the right to extend it for five years.

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CON

Thomas Joseph Stewart

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. T. J. STEWART:

Do you contend that this Government have a right to make an agreement to bind me when I am in British Columbia, or somewhere else, and have had nothing to do with the making of it?

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LIB

William F. Carroll

Liberal

Mr. CARROLL:

That is what my hon. friend was trying to impose on Dundas. The town did not want to accept twenty-nine years, hut the hon. member and his friends were trying to force on the town an agreement which it did not want. My only reason for rising is that as a member of the committee I do not believe that the company should he given any -further extension of time in this matter, or that further consideration would get us any further than we are now.

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LIB

William Erskine Knowles

Liberal

Mr. KNOWLES:

While the members of the committee may have had opportunity of familiarizing themselves with this somewhat complicated matter-a matter which is evidently of very great importance-I accept in good faith what the member for Hamilton (Mr. T. J. Stewart) an hon. gentleman in good standing in the House- has said, as indicating that certain things connected with this matter should be considered more thoroughly than members of this committee are capable of considering them. I speak now more particularly of members who did not attend the sittings of the Railway Committee; for if the names were polled it would doubtless be found that not more than half the members of the committee were present at the meetings. For my part, I am quite incapable of expressing anything like an intelligent opinion on this controversial matter without having discussed it or having had an opportunity of looking into it more fully. In deference to the member for Hamilton, and with due regard to the merits of the case, I think that we should let this matter stand [DOT] for consideration at a future date. This would be only fair to those who are called upon to express an opinion; to do so now would be merely making a shot in the dark. I move, therefore, that further consideration of the Bill be deferred.

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CON

Thomas Joseph Stewart

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. T. J. STEWART:

Some hon. gentlemen have said that the committee held four, five or six meetings. I wish to say- and I am sure that no hon. gentleman can 'successfully contradict me-that the committee really had only one meeting. It is all very fine to say that we had half a dozen meetings, but the rules provide that the quorum of the committee shall consist of a certain number of members, and owing to

fMr. Carroll.]

inability to make a quorum we had only one meeting, and that was the last time the committee was called before the Bill came to the House.

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LIB

Frank Broadstreet Carvell

Liberal

Mr. CARVELL:

I feel like seconding the motion of the member for Moosejaw (Mr. Knowles) for this reason: I dislike registering my vote in respect of a matter about which I know nothing whatever. I thought that when the member for Kingston (Mr. Nickle) took part in the discussion this afternoon, he would give us some explanation of the matter, but unfortunately he did not go far enough to convey anything to my mind. I say frankly that if I were called upon to vote on this Bill I should 'not know how to vote; I do not know anything about it. I would like to see gentlemen representing the different aspects of the question take sufficient time to explain their respective contentions, so that those who were not in the Railway Committee would be able to vote intelligently on the subject. Otherwise, I suggest that consideration of the matter be deferred until 'we get the necessary information.

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CON

William Folger Nickle

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. NICKLE:

I shall again endeavour to make myself clear, perhaps taking more time than I originally did. My information concerning the matter is, of course, gained from the records and from the information given to the Railway Committee. Some twenty years ago the town of Dundas entered into an agreement with what I shall term the street railway company. By the terms of that agreement they gave certain rights and privileges over the streets of the town of Dundas to the street railway company for the term of fifty years.

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CON

Thomas Joseph Stewart

Conservative (1867-1942)

Air. T. J. STEWART:

Agreement for twenty-one years.

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CON

William Folger Nickle

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. NICKLE:

They gave certain rights and privileges to the street railway company for the term of fifty years, as defined by the agreement. At that time it was against the policy of the provincial legislature to permit municipalities to bind themselves for a longer term than twenty-one years. Possibly the member for Hamilton is right in this: that the agreement was stated to be of legal effect for twenty-one years; and that it would become legally binding for the further term of twenty-nine years if legal ratification was secured from the province and from the Dominion. The street railway company then entered into an arrangement with what I shall term the steam railway company, by which they gave running rights and privileges over the

steam railway company for a period of fifty years.

Topic:   TORONTO, HAMILTON AND. BUFFALO RAILWAY COMPANY.
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LIB

Edward Walter Nesbitt

Liberal

Mr. NESBITT:

When was that agreement entered into?

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CON

William Folger Nickle

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. NICKLE:

Very shortly after the

original arrangement was made between the town of Dundas and the street railway company.

Topic:   TORONTO, HAMILTON AND. BUFFALO RAILWAY COMPANY.
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LIB

Frank Broadstreet Carvell

Liberal

Mr. OARVELL:

Was the town a party

to this transaction?

Topic:   TORONTO, HAMILTON AND. BUFFALO RAILWAY COMPANY.
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June 25, 1917