June 4, 1917

CON

Hugh Boulton Morphy

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. MORPHY:

The banks do not take chances iby drawing such documents in their offices, but depend upon their legal advisers. A chattel mortgage costs from four dollars to six dollars, according to its length.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   BANK ACT AMENDMENT.
Sub-subtopic:   LOANS ON SECURITY OF LIVE STOCK.
Permalink
CON

William Thomas White (Minister of Finance and Receiver General)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Sir THOMAS WHITE:

And more in the West. .

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   BANK ACT AMENDMENT.
Sub-subtopic:   LOANS ON SECURITY OF LIVE STOCK.
Permalink
CON

Hugh Boulton Morphy

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. MORPHY:

I speak of what it is in the larger centres; I do not know what it is- in the West. This Bill is not for the benefit of large ranchers alone. We have thousands of farmers who cannot to-day

borrow a dollar on their livestock without too much expense for the small sum involved. The result is that the curb broker gets the benefit in large rates of interest. There is one feature of the Bill that, it occurred to me, should be considered. If there is no registration, it will be a serious thing in the case of farmers having different bank accounts. While farmers, as a class, are extremely honest, once in a while one crops up who is not above attempting a fraud, and, unless there is protection for the lending bank, he may deal with two or three banks. So, I think there should be some provision for filing.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   BANK ACT AMENDMENT.
Sub-subtopic:   LOANS ON SECURITY OF LIVE STOCK.
Permalink
LIB

William Pugsley

Liberal

Mr. PUGSLEY:

That is exactly what we have been saying. My hon. friend from North Simcoe (Mr. Currie) would give the impression that this legislation would be a panacea, that under it the farmer will get all the money he wants from the bank. I do not believe that at all. To-day the bank that is prepared to loan to a farmer bases its loan upon personal credit rather than anything else. While the banks have regard to the prosperity of the farmer, they consider particularly his reputation for honesty and industry. We ought to be very careful when we seek to alter, as we now propose to do, the provincial laws with regard to a bill of sale. We must avoid interfering with the farmer getting credit in other directions. It is very important for the farmer in my own province, and I suppose the same is tiue elsewhere, to be able to get credit with others besides the banks. The man who buys "Stock from another farmer often gives his note for the stock. He needs credit with the storekepeer for flour, sugar, clothing, and other articles. If people know that a law has been brought into force under which a lien may be given to the banks without notice, I am afraid it will have the effect of curtailing the farmer's credit among other people from whom it is necessary for him to borrow in order to get along comfortably. The Minister of Finance is making a law which may be of benefit to the large farmers, but he does not confine it to this class but makes it apply to even the smallest farmers anywhere in Canada.

The minister himself recognizes by his Bill that it is desirable to give notice because he says: after the provincial legislatures have made provision for the filing of the mortgage-

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   BANK ACT AMENDMENT.
Sub-subtopic:   LOANS ON SECURITY OF LIVE STOCK.
Permalink
CON

William Thomas White (Minister of Finance and Receiver General)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Sir THOMAS WHITE:

" If " and "after."

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   BANK ACT AMENDMENT.
Sub-subtopic:   LOANS ON SECURITY OF LIVE STOCK.
Permalink
LIB

William Pugsley

Liberal

Mr. PUGSLEY:

But it is the filing of a mortgage not in the form the legislature

provides, but in the form the minister provides.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   BANK ACT AMENDMENT.
Sub-subtopic:   LOANS ON SECURITY OF LIVE STOCK.
Permalink
CON

William Thomas White (Minister of Finance and Receiver General)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Sir THOMAS WHITE:

Read the Bill.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   BANK ACT AMENDMENT.
Sub-subtopic:   LOANS ON SECURITY OF LIVE STOCK.
Permalink
LIB

William Pugsley

Liberal

Mr. PUGSLEY:

I have read the Bill. The schedule is the form of mortgage. It is a little bit shorter and cheaper than the ordinary form of chattel mortgage which the legislatures have provided for. The banks, I suppose, will keep printed forms of this mortgage.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   BANK ACT AMENDMENT.
Sub-subtopic:   LOANS ON SECURITY OF LIVE STOCK.
Permalink
CON

William Thomas White (Minister of Finance and Receiver General)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Sir THOMAS WHITE:

It Mill be

cheaper than the ordinary chattel mortgage.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   BANK ACT AMENDMENT.
Sub-subtopic:   LOANS ON SECURITY OF LIVE STOCK.
Permalink
LIB

William Pugsley

Liberal

Mr. PUGSLEY:

Perhaps it will cost

fifty cents or a dollar less. But the bank could keep a form of the printed chattel mortgage, as it could keep the form of this mortgage, and the expense would be very little less. I have no objection to the form of chattel mortgage that the minister proposes to adopt. It is perhaps simpler and a little bit cheaper than the form the legislatures have adopted. But what I do object to is that under the proposed legislation adopting this particular form of chattel mortgage these secret liens can be given and bona fide securities seriously affected. If the minister would change that and provide that in any province where legislation along the lines suggested has not been passed the present law should prevail I think it would be all right.

But let me refer to the suggestion of my hon. friend from Assiniboia (Mr. Turriff) as to what the minister must do to confer a real benefit upon the farmers; that is the introduction of a Bill providing for the establishment of farmers' banks. That is the way in which relief could be given. The minister stated at the last session of Parliament that the Government were earnestly thinking of this question. I think this might be an opportune time for the minister to tell us what has been the result of that thinking in which the Government were then engaged and if during the present session the Government will be prepared to submit to Parliament a Bill for the creation of farmers' banks. That has been done in the United States and it has accomplished wonders. It has greatly increased the production of the farmers. It is enabling them to get credit at a low rate of interest and they are buying agricultural machinery and stock and develop-, ing their farms and 1jhe result is proving enormously beneficial not only to the farmers alone but to the people generally.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   BANK ACT AMENDMENT.
Sub-subtopic:   LOANS ON SECURITY OF LIVE STOCK.
Permalink
CON

John Allister Currie

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. CURRIE:

Where is that?

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   BANK ACT AMENDMENT.
Sub-subtopic:   LOANS ON SECURITY OF LIVE STOCK.
Permalink
LIB

William Pugsley

Liberal

Mr. PUGSLEY:

In the United States.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   BANK ACT AMENDMENT.
Sub-subtopic:   LOANS ON SECURITY OF LIVE STOCK.
Permalink
CON

John Allister Currie

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. CURRIE:

It has just been in force about six months.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   BANK ACT AMENDMENT.
Sub-subtopic:   LOANS ON SECURITY OF LIVE STOCK.
Permalink
LIB

William Pugsley

Liberal

Mr. PUGSLEY:

I beg my hon. friend's pardon. I am familiar with what has been going on there and I can tell my hon. friend that as a result of that legislation the farmers are enlarging their production enormously. That is a way in which the Government could confer a great benefit on the farmers, but I doubt very much if they will be able to do it by this law allowing these secret liens. It may result in the farmers being deprived of credit rather than enabling them to get additional credit at the banks.

Resolution reported, read the second time and agreed to. .

Sir THOMAS WHITE introduced Bill No. 65, to amend the Bank Act.

Motion agreed to and the Bill read the first time.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   BANK ACT AMENDMENT.
Sub-subtopic:   LOANS ON SECURITY OF LIVE STOCK.
Permalink

RUMOURED POLITICAL DEADLOCK.


On the Orders of the Day:


LIB

Michael Clark

Liberal

Mr. MICHAEL CLARK (Red Deer):

I

should like, with your permission, to address a question to my Tight hon. friend the Prime Minister (Sir Robert Borden) based on what I conceive to be two most important items in the morning paper. The first of these is one in which we all take great pride and it is to the effect that the Canadians at the front have taken an important place in the neighbourhood of Lens, marching through a shell-swept area as if they were engaged in manoeuvres. The second item that I conceive to be of importance is that in certain other operations nearer home than France-which, I hope, I shall not be offensive in designating as manoeuvres.-there is a deadlock existing. The question I desire to address to my right hon. friend I address partly as one of the unambitious rank and file of this House and in some degree on behalf pf an anxious, waiting, and expectant public, and, I think as well, in some degree on behalf of the men at the front. The question I wish to put is: Has my right hon. friend any

communication to impart to the country pr to the House as to whether this deadlock is likely to come to an end one way or another within a reasonable period of time? I suppose all deadlocks end some time, somehow, but I am perfectly sure that there is a great desire that this one should end one way or the other within a reasonable period of time.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   RUMOURED POLITICAL DEADLOCK.
Permalink
?

Right Hon. S@

I should be glad indeed to give my hon. friend (Mr. Clark), the House, ,and the country any information that was available but I hope he will regard me as not in the least wanting in respect for him, or in the desire to give all information possible, when I say that there is not at the present time any announcement to make.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   RUMOURED POLITICAL DEADLOCK.
Permalink

PURCHASE OF CHEESE BY THE BRITISH GOVERNMENT.

CON

Martin Burrell (Minister of Agriculture)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Hon. MARTIN BURRELL (Minister of Agriculture):

Mr. Speaker, there has also

been a little deadlock in regard to the matter of the purchase of cheese by the Imperial 'Government and perhaps I might make a statement on that matter because last week when unfortunately I was not [DOT]able to be present in the House the hon. member for Glengarry (Mr. McMillan) made a statement which was substantially correct and I think my hon. friend from Russell (Mr. Murphy) also put a question to the House which was answered by my right hon. friend the Prime Minister (Sir Robert Borden) who, I noticed, in reading Hansard, stated that I would give further information if I had it. If you will permit me, I would like to give a very short review of the situation without which the present condition wpuld not be very intelligible.

Last autumn the British authorities communicated with tire Canadian Government with the idea of seeing whether it would be possible for them, in some manner or other, to secure the whole exportable surplus of Canadian cheese. We pointed out that as it was the close of the season it would be practically impossible to do anything and that if they did wish to achieve anything in that way another season it would be very desirable to commence in January or February when the Government here felt it would be quite feasible to make some arrangement which would be satisfactory all round.

Nothing of that kind,however, was done in January and February, and meanwhile the British authorities had commandeered, through the New Zealand Government, the whole of the New Zealand cheese output at a price of 19 cents f.o.b. In March, through the Prime Minister, who was then in England, there was a suggestion that we should secure the whole of the Canadian cheese output for this year by a process of com-

mandeering. The Government, after thoroughly considering the whole matter, advised the Prime Minister and through him the Imperial Government, that we did not consider a process of commandeering cheese would 'be a very satisfactory method in regard to Canada, whose conditions were entirely different from those in New Zealand. We pointed out that New Zealand oiperated through a limited number of factories which were all not only manufacturing agencies but selling agencies as well, and that this system was an entire contrast to that in this country, where we have

3,000 factories and where the whole trade is done through cheese buyers and an organized trade. Therefore we said it would not be practicable to commandeer the cheese. Some correspondence went on by cable, and it was then suggested that a commission should be appointed, on which the British authorities would have one representative, with the idea of carrying out the suggestion we had made, namely that in any arrangement to secure the whole cheese production of Canada on satisfactory terms it would be desirable to operate through all the existing trade channels that had carried on their business from time immemorial here. As a result of that, a commission of three was finally appointed. The British authorities-appointed Mr. James McGowan, and informed us by cable that he was sailing for Canada. It was quite obvious that nothing could be done until that commissioner arrived from England. Speaking from memory, I think he did not arrive until the middle or end of April. Meantime the eheese market in Canada had opened, and though there was no heavy demand, as not much cheese was being manufactured, yet the maximum price that had been fixed in England permitted a condition to exist which allowed competitive bidding on this side for the small business that was offered, at a price even in excess of that at last fall, and far in excess of the price at which the New Zealand output had been secured for the Imperial Government. Meantime the shipping problem was also growing very acute, and some what later the British authorities practically ceased permitting -any space to be taken up by Canadian cheese from Canadian ports. There were reports that American and Canadian cheese was going by British and United States ships through American ports, and I think it probable that to some extent these reports were true. At all events, we advised the British authorities of those reports.

It is not necessary for me to say-because every member who has farmers engaged in the dairy business in his constituency has probably had many letters-that all manufacturers of cheese and cheese -buyers were by this time, well on in May, becoming very uneasy for one or two reasons. They were uneasy as to whether it would be practicable to get rid of their cheese at all if no space was to be given to it, and they were also uneasy as to the price, th market was fluctuating, one day it was 26 and 27 cents and later down to 20 cents simply because there was only -a nominal market, and the whole situation was uncertain and vexing. They were beginning to store cheese; storage space was being filled up; they did not know whether to manufacture to a large extent, and in short no one knew where he stood. I would say, in regard to the Commission and its relations with the Government, because there has been a lot of misconception, that obviously this Government could not be responsible for the price the Imperial authorities might be disposed to or could offer for Canadian cheese. It was our idea, so far as the Commission was concerned, to advance the legitimate interests of the cheese producers of this country and to facilitate the action of, and help the British authorities -by arranging the very complicated conditions in regard to the purchase of a commodity like cheese in this country in order that it might all be done with the least possible friction and the greatest possible advantage to both Canada and Great Britain.

Then quite recently it was stated that the British authorities had decided to commandeer all cheese, whether from the United States, or Canada, or Australia, or New Zealand, or any other point, directly it arrived at British ports, and that they had changed their maximum price and were now putting on the market for civilian use, cheese at such a price as would permit it to be retailed at about 16 pence a pound, and naturally there was practically a suspension of business in this country, and nobody knew exactly what was going to be done.

May I assure the House that, in so far as this Government is concerned, every single fact connected with the whole matter has been placed in the fullest possible way before the British authorities, and we have taken this ground, that while we conceive it to be our duty as patriotic and loyal Canadians to assist the Mother Country in every possible way to get those food supplies which are so vital to Great Britain

at this time, it was also our duty to conserve, so far as we could on right lines, every legitimate and fair interest of the producers of this country, and we wanted to achieve, if possible, both those objects.-We pointed out also that if so low a price as 19 cents was likely to be fixed by the British authorities for Canadian cheese, they must not overlook the fact that in the case of such a commodity a very low price would simply result in the diversion of the raw material for cheese to other forms of manufacture that might be more profitable, and although the British Government might get all the cheese manufactured for whatever price they paid, because there was practically no other market, there was still the question of the amount produced, as with too low a price, the manufacturers would divert the raw material to other uses. We pointed out all of these things in the fullest way; we showed that our conditions were not like those in New Zealand, and that our trade conditions called for entirely different treatment. I understand that the British commissioner has now been advised by the Imperial authorities that he is authorized to do some buying at once in order to relieve the deadlock which has existed for some time past, and in this connection may I add that I have been particularly pressing upon the British authorities the vital necessity of making some move at once to relieve the congestion which existed, and to end the uncertainty which w^s practically paralyzing the whole business. As a result of this, I understand that the British commissioner has been authorized to go out and buy for a time at a price of 213 cents f.o.b., Montreal, which, i'f not as satisfactory as some of our cheese manufacturers hoped, is at least more satisfactory than the New Zealand price and is about 2 cents better to the factory than the average price of last year. Whether that condition will improve after a time, I am not in a position to say. I wanted to make this statement to the House in order to assure the members that, so far as we are concerned, absolutely no stone has been left unturned, not only to assist the British Government, but in every legitimate way, to protect the Canadian producer.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   PURCHASE OF CHEESE BY THE BRITISH GOVERNMENT.
Sub-subtopic:   STATEMENT BY THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.
Permalink

June 4, 1917