May 13, 1916

LIB

Frank Broadstreet Carvell

Liberal

Mr. F. B. CARVELL (Carleton, N.B.):

Mr. Speaker, the somewhat wonderful statement of the Minister of Militia reminds me of a quotation from the Bible which I think I can quote correctly: " The wicked flee when no man pursueth." I would like to know who ever asked the Minister of Militia to send our boys to the front with defective ammunition. I would like to know what a discussion about giving J. Wesley Allison a rake-off of $5,000 has to do with sending our boys to the front with poor ammunition. I want to answer the minister in a logical, fair manner, but it is pretty bard to do so, after listening to the arguments he has used. This is not a question of whether or not there was bad ammunition in Canada. If the Government bad1 poor ammunition or defective ammunition on their hands, this country has money enough to take charge of that and to throw it into the river, if necessary, and get good ammunition in its place. The question which we are bringing up here to-day, which was first brought up by the Auditor General-and I think, notwithstanding the dire threats made by the Minister of Militia, that once in a while it is a good thing for Canada that there is an Auditor General. The question brought up by him is the fact that defective ammunition was owned by the Dominion of Canada; that the Minister of Militia, through his counsellor, friend and guide, J. Wesley Allison, sold this, not to Vickers, but through Vickers, to the British Admiralty, at a rake-off of $5 a thousand rounds.

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L-C

Samuel Hughes (Minister of Militia and Defence)

Liberal-Conservative

Sir SAM HUGHES:

That is a deliberate mis-statement, and he knows it.

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Some hon. MEMBERS:

Order.

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L-C

Samuel Hughes (Minister of Militia and Defence)

Liberal-Conservative

Sir SAM HUGHES:

The records do not show it.

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Some hon. MEMBERS:

Order.

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L-C
CON

Auguste-Charles-Philippe-Robert Landry (Speaker of the Senate)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. SPEAKER:

I am asked by some hon. members to decide whether or not the hon. member's statement is parliamentary ot not.

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LIB

Wilfrid Laurier (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Liberal

Sir WILFRID LAURIER:

"And he

knows it."

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CON

Auguste-Charles-Philippe-Robert Landry (Speaker of the Senate)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. SPEAKER:

According to the authorities, I have to decide that it is certainly out of order and offensive.

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L-C

Samuel Hughes (Minister of Militia and Defence)

Liberal-Conservative

Sir SAM HUGHES:

I bow to your ruling, but it does not change the position.

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Some hon. MEMBERS:

All you have to do is to read a few things like that going hack just two or three months in our political history-

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CON

Robert Laird Borden (Prime Minister; Secretary of State for External Affairs; President of the Privy Council)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Sir ROBERT BORDEN:

I would like to say that, if the hon. gentleman suggests that it was referred to Sir Charles Davidson at the instance of the Minister of Militia, he states that which is not true.

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Some hon. MEMBERS:

Hear, hear.

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LIB

Frank Broadstreet Carvell

Liberal

Mr. CARVELL:

I am glad to give some of my hon. friends on the other side a chance to clap and feel good, I realize that my hon. friends do not get very many opportunities these days to cheer, and I suppose we should not begrudge them this little pleasure once in a while. Perhaps my right hon. friend the Prime Minister would tell me whether the Minister of Militia objected to the appointment of Sir Charles Davidson?

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CON

Robert Laird Borden (Prime Minister; Secretary of State for External Affairs; President of the Privy Council)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Sir ROBERT BORDEN:

The Minister of Militia was not consulted about it. It was determined at a meeting of my colleagues at which he did not happen to be present.

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LIB

Frank Broadstreet Carvell

Liberal

Mr. CARVELL:

We must have a great deal less respect for the Prime Minister and his colleagues than we had before that, because I want to tell the Prime Minister that it does him and his colleagues very little credit that in a matter of .this importance they should select the commissioner who has on previous occasions been chosen by the Minister of Militia in order to investigate things which have turned out so rotten that the name of Canada is a disgrace ' and a by-word among the civilized nations of the world.

iSir SAM HUGHES: Does the hon. gentleman mean to say that I have chosen Sir Charles Davidson?

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LIB
L-C

Samuel Hughes (Minister of Militia and Defence)

Liberal-Conservative

Sir SAM HUGHES:

If the hon. gentleman does not care to repeat what he said I am not particular; I pay no attention to what he 6ays anyway.

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LIB

Frank Broadstreet Carvell

Liberal

Mt. CARVELL:

I am not going to repeat; hut what I said I stand by. I tell the Premier that if he thinks he can satisfy the people of Canada by referring matters of this importance to Sir Charles Davidson, in the light of what this commission had done during the last year, he is living in a fool's paradise. The people of this country will not stand for any more hiding and covering up of the'dishonest and nefarious

(Mr. Carvell.]

transactions of my right hon. friend's friends and supporters. There is no use trying to hide the thing or smooth it over. We have had enough illustrations in the last few months of the attitude of the Premier, and we might as well just come out and call a spade a spade, as Sir William Meredith said at the commission the other day. Day after day and week after week since this Parliament assembled in January last, we have sought for an opportunity to get the light of day on many transactions of the friends of this Government, and* we have been balked at every turn except in one case where the Government were driven to it by a power whose name I am not at liberty to mention in this House. They have refused us investigations, and have made one flimsy excuse after another, and when driven from one citadel to another-

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CON

Robert Laird Borden (Prime Minister; Secretary of State for External Affairs; President of the Privy Council)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Sir ROBERT BORDEN:

What does the hon. member mean when he says we were driven to a course of action by a power he is not at liberty to mention?

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May 13, 1916