March 3, 1916

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John William Bell

Mr. CAR YELL:

Are there .any illustration stations in New Brunswick?

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CON

John Douglas Hazen (Minister of Marine and Fisheries; Minister of the Naval Service)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. HAZEN:

No. The only places where there are illustration stations at present are in Saskatchewan, Alberta and Quebec.

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LIB

Frank Broadstreet Carvell

Liberal

Mr. CARVELL:

I suppose the amount of money involved is small, perhaps a few thousand dollars in each case. ,

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CON

John Douglas Hazen (Minister of Marine and Fisheries; Minister of the Naval Service)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. HAZEN:

It is much smaller than that. They pay the farmers about $5 per acre for the land used and supply them with seed.

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LIB
CON

John Douglas Hazen (Minister of Marine and Fisheries; Minister of the Naval Service)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. HAZEN:

The farmer.

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LIB

Frank Broadstreet Carvell

Liberal

Mr. CARVELL:

I am not a farmer in the sense that some of my friends around me are farmers, and yet I take an interest in farming. It has always seemed to me that the course the department has recently taken is a great advance on the course pursued in the past. The minister will remember that a year or two ago we had a discussion in this House about an experimental farm which the minister was instrumental in having established at Fredericton and which I criticised very severely. I find in the Auditor General's Report for the last fiscal year that that farm has cost $50,278. There has been a small return, a few hundred dollars, but I think I am safe in saying that its net cost has been $100,000. It may have been of some value; I will not say it has not; but I think that even the minister will have to admit that it is not producing the results along educative lines in agriculture that we would like. I think it is in the wrong location; but we will not go into that. I hope the department will stop spending money by the hundreds of thousands of dollars in one place, and distribute it around the country so that many people will be able to derive advantage from it. I do not suppose that 500 farmers in a year would take advantage of the educative branch of the experimental farm at Fredericton, and I doubt if one-half of 500 a year do. It does seem to be an enormous amount of amount of money to expend for the results attained.

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CON

John Douglas Hazen (Minister of Marine and Fisheries; Minister of the Naval Service)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. HAZEN:

The gentleman who is

coaching me to-day says there are 300 farmers from various parts of New Brunswick visiting that farm to-day.

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LIB

Frank Broadstreet Carvell

Liberal

Mr. CARVELL:

My hon. friend knows

that is an annual occasion. It is all very well to entertain them there, but that is not a great advantage from an educational standpoint. I am sorry to say that in New Brunswick we are not raising stock to anything like the extent we should; we are not raising one-tenth of what we ought to. Farmers will not derive any advantage in respect to stock raising from visiting the farm. I see by the Auditor General's Report that the department has purchased for that farm cows costing from $30 to $40. At that price they cannot be pure-bred stock or even good grade stock. I have before me an item of the purchase of 5 heifers from W. E. Kirk, New Maryland, for $153. That would be only $30 apiece. What is the sense of buying heifers at $30 apiece to put on an experimental farm? I do not know why things of this kind are done at that farm. The gentleman in charge ought to have knowledge of agricultural matters. He has occupied public positions long enough. It may be that he has occupied them too long, and possibly that it would be better to have a man who had yet to gain a reputation; we might then get better results. I do think it would be better to stop spending money in Fredericton. This $100,000 ought to be enough for that place. In the first place, I think for political reasons, the department bought a farm whidh is of little value for experimental purposes. While there are a few acres of good land in the front, that is all the good land there is on the farm. They have hired men by the dozen and have employed them in clearing the land and taking out the roots and stumps; and any person going into Fredericton over the Canadian Pacific railway and seeing this farm would not buy any of it for pasturage, let alone experimental purposes, except perhaps these few acres at the front. I would call attention to pages A-24, A-25, and A-26, in the Auditor

General's Report. The Acting Minister of Agriculture knows every foot of that land, because it is within three miles of the place where he lived until he was a man; he knows it much better than I do; and I think, if he will tell the honest truth, he will have to admit that we are getting very poor returns for this enormous expenditure.

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CON

John Douglas Hazen (Minister of Marine and Fisheries; Minister of the Naval Service)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. HAZEN:

I do not want to enter into a discussion as to the details, as my hon. friend and I discussed this farm in the House on a previous occasion. In my opinion the farm is admirably located. It is

L-inr. liazeu. J

close to Fredericton, within the city limits, although it is about two miles from the Parliament buildings.

Far from being a waste, I .would call this excellent land. Before being bought it was inspected by the Director of Experimental Farms at Ottawa, a gentleman who has been in the Service for a good many years, and who is recognized as an authority, and it was also inspected personally, I believe, by the Minister of Agriculture, and they came to the conclusion to buy that property without the slightest political influence being used. However, that is simply by the way. Of course, the establishment of a new experimental farm costs a certain amount of money. Buildings have to be erected, land has to be cleared, drainage has to be put in, and all these things naturally make the cost of an experimental farm in its earlier stages greater than afterwards. That is the case with the farm at Fredericton, as it has been the case with similar undertakings elsewhere. With regard to the stock, I am informed-I am not speaking as an expert; I am simply occupying the position temporarily during the unfortunate illness of the Minister of Agriculture-that the heifers that cost $30 each were simply grade heifers. What they are trying to do is to show the farmers in the neighbourhood, and the farmers who go there, how to improve their stock, even if they are only grades. In New Brunswick we have some good herds, but as a rule they are grade cattle, and the object on the experimental farm is to buy those heifers, have them covered by thoroughbred bulls, and so improve the general stock of the country, where grade cattle are largely used and there are not many thoroughbreds. To embark at once on thoroughbred stock involves a considerable outlay of money which would be beyond the reach of a great many farmers who do not farm on an extensive scale. Buying grades and having them infused with thorough-breds improves the stock, and in exemplification of What can be done along that line I am told that there has been a general production of good stock throughout the country.

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LIB

Frank Broadstreet Carvell

Liberal

Mr. CARVELL:

I hope the minister is right. In addition to what I pointed out, I find this item in the Auditor General's Report: " T. T. Mersereau, Russiagornis, one cow, $30." Just think of an experimental farm buying an old cow for $30. It

takes a lot of faith in the minister's explanation to make one 'believe that they would buy that cow.

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CON

John Douglas Hazen (Minister of Marine and Fisheries; Minister of the Naval Service)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. HAZEN:

I am informed that the stock-breeding is managed directly from the Experimental Farm here, and that those purchases have been made under the direction of the Director of Experimental Farms, whose headquarters .are at Ottawa.

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LIB

Frank Broadstreet Carvell

Liberal

Mr. CARVELL:

I accept the minister's explanation, and I only hope the policy will work out as well as they think it will.

I do notice in the Auditor General's Report that they have been buying some good cattle. They bought three Shorthorn cattle from G. A. Jackson, Downsview, Ont., for $820, and five Ayrshires from J. F. Owen, Stonefield, P.Q., for $1,200.

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IND

Joseph Girard

Independent Conservative

Mr. JOSEPH GIRARD (Chicoutimi-Saguenay):

{Translation.) Mr. 'Chairman, I should like in passing to make a few remarks on the Estimates of the Minister of Agriculture. I have .just heard a discussion on experimental farms, and, as I understand, some of my fellow-members find fault with the price of maintenance as being too high, and criticise the purchase of certain cattle at what they deem too low a price.

Experimental farms, 1 take it, have been established in the country through the expenditure of public funds for the purpose of conducting, on a large scale, experiments covering protracted periods and such as most farmers could not undertake themselves, but which they find of invaluable benefit after the trials are made and the-results published. .

Naturally, that experimental work entails a large expenditure without any definite financial return, but it is of great financial advantage to the people. Yet we are aware that at Ottawa, the part of the farm which is cultivated for general purposes, gives fair returns, notwithstanding that all the work is done by day labour and the salaries paid are higher than the general run for farm help.

Buying low-priced cattle has been criticised. Everybody knows that. But why were they bought? When low prices are paidv for milch cows, the purpose is to demonstrate experimentally that, even with all possible care, buying such cows is not profitable. By means of the official results of a number of experiments, the farmers may be made more easily to understand that cattle of that sort means a loss to them.

Ridiculous prices are purposely paid for stock, to prove by official test how utterly unsatisfactory will be the results secured therefrom. Then lecturers are sent through-, out the country, meet the farmers and speak to them in a practical way and make use of the statistics supplied by such painstaking experiments.

At other times, cattle are bought in the country to experiment for beef. Of course, some of the stock procured in the country is obtained at a low price, others come higher, and experiments are made year after year with those cattle. They are attended to in the same way and fed the same rations so as to make sure what animals in fattening will yield a profit, and what others will not. Those experiments must cost money to us, but the benefit to' the farmers more than warrants the expenditure.

I, for one, urge on the Government to keep on making those experiments as extensively as possible in all branches of the {arming industry, because their discontinuance would prevent the farmers from making the good money they now make; and because the Government is indirectly recouped of its expenditure.

I wish to state that -when the appointment was made of a general director of the experimental farms of the Dominion to succeed the late William Saunders, it was, as I know, a promotion given to an altogether deserving and capable officer.

I say then, that expenditure on the experimental farms in Canada, controlled of course, by the general director at Ottawa, should not be the subject of criticism from persons without any experience on the farm. It is a well-known fact that, for no possible reason would that official betray his minister's confidence, and that he gives the service all the knowledge, the readiness and the honesty an agriculturist of his standing can command. So, some of those gentlemen who are neither agriculturists, agronomists or farmers, or anything else connected with farming, had better stop entering into a kind of criticism I always dislike to hear. If in the public service there are any higher officers whom the country can trust as being strictly honest and competent, such a one is the official I have just spoken of, as all may certify who know Mr. Grisdale; so that, to dare criticise his acts, one must have qualifications and honesty much above those of the average good citizen.

Speakers have referred to illustration stations last summer. The hon. the Minister of Agriculture was good enough to establish one of those stations in my district. We

hope to see it develop into a regular branch of the Ottawa Experimental Farm Illustration plots are not very expensive and help to demonstrate the kind of management best suited to the land around. 1 here is nothing in it for the farmer who is in charge, as he receives barely what can pay for his trouble; but the plots are just what is wanted to spread among the farmers of the different provinces the knowledge of practical farming.

I congratulate the Minister of Agriculture on this improvement in agricultural education; his efforts are bound to give good results.

Certain Quebec papers have made violent attacks on the Minister of Agriculture for his providing breeding stock everywhere in the country to societies asking for them; of course there is no political preference shown. The complaint has gone that a great number of animals thus provided were unfit for breeding purposes, that they had been bought at ridiculous prices to help certain political friends, who wanted to get rid of their useless animals. I investigated and am aware of the prices that were paid. In my county the farmers who through their regular organizations, have been provided by hundreds with breeding stock of all races, know that the animals had been well selected. I have looked over those animals; they have been well selected and well bought. Some of those that have been provided throughout the country, may have been unfit, but that comes from the veterinary surgeons improperly diagnosing the health of the beasts and also because it is impossible to foresee the inability of a particular individual.

But even if the complaint were true, the Dominion Minister of Agriculture, would not be more to blame than the Minister of Agriculture for Quebec, who himself, during many years, has imported at a high cost Ardennais stallions which he sold at a heavy cost to the agricultural societies of the province and among which horses were found absolutely unfit for breeding purposes notwithstanding'all the pedigrees and health certificates signed by European and Canadian inspectors.

I have had the honour for many years to be president of the Agricultural Society of Lake St. John. We decided to take advantage of these Ardennais stallions to improve our stock. At one time, we had as many as nine stallions, which had cost us $1,000 each, and there was one of them altogether unfit for breeding, so that we had to sell him for $300, the society being out

$700. In the Dominion Government scheme, if the animal should prove unfit, the Government bears the loss, as the stock is only lent to the farmers; while in Quebec, the associations themselves buy, pay and have to bear any loss. A man must be quite bold to write to the papers in criticism of the Dominion Government's scheme which has proven so beneficial, for the purpose of preventing its development, and at the same time, keep silent about the defects in the provincial organization. That is mere political agitation. Another great advantage which the farmers enjoy under the plan f6r-jvarded by the Dominion Minister of Agriculture, is that once they have selected a particular breed they have to keep on with it, so that every farmer may within a few years by judicious selection have a good stock of thoroughbreds, instead of what we have almost everywhere, a mixed grade which are not at all as valuable as the thoroughbreds. The Quebec Government is absolutely careless as to selection. As proof, we have the well-known want of control exercised over the breeding of the Ardennais horses. Thus it is that if you travel in the province of Quebec, you will seldom meet with thoroughbreds; you may account for it by the fact that the Provincial Government does not keep track of the work in the agricultural societies and clubs, so that the latter buy any breeding stock and go on mixing their stock at will. So that the Dominion department must keep on its good work to remedy the results of the incapacity shown by the Quebec authorities.

I must call the attention of the Minister of Agriculture to the manner in which his . agreement with the Quebec Minister of Agriculture respecting agricultural training is carried out. Last year, he paid over $27,000 to the Dairy Society of Quebec and in return the Provincial Government was to divide the whole province into fifty butter and cheese syndicates,"the Provincial Government itself paying the inspectors' salaries. Prior to that the province had about seventy syndicates in operation and they did not cover the whole province. The inspectors were paid partly by the Government and partly by the cheese and butter factories, and hired by the farmers, which meant that they were not so independent of their patrons. I was a long time member of the Quebec Society for the Promotion of the Dairy Industry; I was at one time its president, and I can say that we worked long and earnestly to secure this new system of syndicates which was introduced in 1915.

It was a practical reform, but it could

not be carried out without an unfair rider being tacked on to it. The Quebec Government got $27,000 as Ottawa's share of the expense, yet being anxious to levy taxes, though not for the war they turned around and taxed every factory of the province to the extent of $15 each at which the factory owners were so indignant that a number refused to pay. But the Government took proceedings to enforce collection and of course the law had to prevail. I suggest to the hon. the minister to see to it next time that the obnoxious tax be withdrawn.

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LIB

Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain

Liberal

Hon. Mr. CASGRAIN:

(Translation.) Will my hon. friend suggest a means to have it withdrawn?

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IND

Joseph Girard

Independent Conservative

Mr. GIRARD:

(Translation.) In the

agreement between the two ministers of agriculture, there, should be a way, I think, for the Federal Department to have its say; if it pays over money, it ought to make the payment conditional on the tax being withdrawn. I am no lawyer, but that seems to me the simplest way out.

When fifty inspectors were appointed, the best available men, I suppose, were chosen, without any political bias being shown. Yet here is what happened at Lake St. John and Chicoutimi. The four local inspectors, of several years' experience, who controlled the syndicates, had managed to have their cheese rated as among the best of the province. Two of them were discharged and two strangers appointed in their place. The western section of Lake St. John was so unfortunate as to get one of the new inspectors, with the result that, through his ignorance and the bad quality of cheese he got manufactured, the farmers there lost during May, June and July, $3,500. He was left there three full months and then his place was given to a stranger instead of the appointment going to one of the local men who had been discharged in the spring.

I do not think the farmers should thus be made to suffer through unqualified men being appointed. Although the last inspector was an improvement on the first importation, yet it was unfair to my county. I urge on the minister to see that in tlrs year's agreement the farmers' interests be put out of the reach of the blunders of the Quebec Government. Contesting associations are not very numerous in the province of Quebec; one should be found in every parish; their practical and educational utility is great. Tnere is one operating in my county, while there ought to be at least four. I realize the Government's anxiety in the present frightful crisis to cut

down the expenditure everywhere. But for agriculture nothing, in my mind, should be spared; its development is the one great mainstay of the country at large.

It has been mentioned in papers and elsewhere that those associations cost a lot of money with no returns apparent and that their officers were incompetent. In my district, the chief inspector, Mr. Hudon, had fifteen years' experience as inspectors of butter and cheese factories, and the Quebec Dairymen's Association intended to appoint him at some future time as expert to cooperate with Mr. Bourbeau, the chief inspector. To say that he is incompetent is a bold assertion. I am not acquainted with the others, but they all have their certificates as syndicate inspectors issued by the Quebec Dairymen's Association. They should be qualified. The influence brought to bear to minimize the good work being done by those associations was * ill-advised, and whoever is responsible is either a fool or a dishonest man.

It has been here stated that a part of this year's Budget would not be spent. Under present circumstances, the Government likely is justified in its stand. But the vote for agriculture should remain as it is, on account of so many interests being involved in that industry.

Every possible means should be taken to keep up the farmers' institutes. The farmers take to them more than ever, and their importance is much greater than a few years ago. For one thing, there has been a better selection of lecturers. With good lecturers the farmers, finding a greater interest in the institutes, spread the good news and more people are anxious to attend.

I think the House ought to be told that the farmer himself is the best judge of the speeches he hears, so that to be of use to him, the lecturers must be men speaking in a practical way, with common sense and in a language that he understands. So the minister ought to be very careful in his appointment of lecturers. The harm done by the appointment of some inferior men, cannot be overcome by the occasional appearance of a well-informed, competent lecturer.

Yearly the Dominion pays over to Quebec $60,000 for agricultural schools. I find that, notwithstanding that large amount, nothing has been done in my district. I would respectfully urge the minister, when the next agreement is entered into, to see that the Provincial Government establish a school of that kind at Chicoutimi, where it is absolutely required by the farmers. With the Seminary at Chicoutimi as a nucleus there

would be no difficulty in. organizing the school on the same footing as was done at Ste. Anne de la Pocatiere.

I ask the minister to note the number of graduates that come out every year from the agricultural schools of Quebec, who, although they could have gone into the professions, have preferred to take up agriculture. As bachelors, they are unquestionably entitled to consideration and encouragement from the Government. I know a number who speak and write fluently both languages, and I urge upon the minister the necessity of helping on in all possible manner those deserving young men.

Now, as I take my seat, I wish to express to the minister my thanks for what he is doing for the farmers of my county, who, as they are progressive, derive much benefit from his favours. But one question is pressing for immediate settlement. I said a while ago that the illustration farm which the minister has kindly established at Lake St. John last summer will be developed into a branch of the experimental farms. But on account of the special conditions prevailing in my county; of its geographical position at the very north of the province; of its isolation behind the Lauren-tians which, on acount of their well-known height over a length of one hundred miles, shut off the warmer currents that are felt over the southern slope; on account also of the late sowing, every year a few weeks behind the rest of the province, due to the wide sheet of ice on lake St. John; on account of its particular geological formation;- of the dangerous frosts that occur early in the fall and late in spring, on account of all those conditions, and although the industry and intelligence of the people have made our farmers' fairly thriving, the Government should not delay any longer the establishment of the branch I Rave referred to. Note also that the methods in use in the other experimental farms of the province of Quebec cannot be of use in my district, owing to the circumstances I have pointed out.

The hon. the Postmaster General (Mr. Cas-grain) and the hon. the Minister of Inland Revenue (Mr. Patenaude) consented, last September, to take a trip to the eastern part of Lake St. John. They visited two parishes; they wanted to see for themselves; now they know, I ask them to exert their influence with the hon. the Minister of Agriculture to have that question settled without delay, 30,000 people would be benefited; they are the settlers of that country. Undeterred by the obstacles then in the way

and the privations they had to undergo, they went bravely into the forest, where they have opened up about fifty parishes, well organized, and that are a credit to the country. The time has now arrived for the country to show its gratefulness without more delay.

I should not omit, as I take my seat, congratulating the hon. the Minister of Agriculture and the Government on the great success of their progressive policy toward the farming industry. I heartily wish that success will keep on, notwithstanding the appalling crisis now with us, and I assure the Government of my most effective support.

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CON

Eugène Paquet

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. E. PAQUET (l'lslet):

(Translation.) Mr. Speaker, I wish to make a few remarks concerning the agricultural work of the Dominion Government. I feel thankful to my good friend from Chicoutimi (Mr. Girard) for his always apt references to agriculture. .

From 1901 to 1911, the population of cities and towns has increased 62 per cent, while the country population increased by a bare 70 per cent.

In the eastern provinces, the increase in the country has not been normal. The exodus from the farm to the city is much to be deplored. The Conservative Government, in view of the abandonment of farms, the scarcity of labour and the high cost of living, is striving constantly to give to agriculture the high place it should hold in Canada.

The Prime Minister, alive to the necessity of stimulating production, particularly farm production, appointed on the 15th of October, 1915, a Commission of Agriculture.

Economical conditions arising out of the war, impart still greater importance to the business of farming. The commission's special object is to inquire into the best methods of increasing production. The commissioners will seek the best means to obtain a heavier yield, improve the systems of instruction and demonstration, develop new productive areas, induce the immigration of farmers and farm hands, encourage co-operation, improve our transportation systems and find new markets. Allow me to quote the following words of the Minister of Finance:

Canada's future depends on the development of its immense resources, of which agriculture is the most essential, and that development is itself linked with the increase in the number of producers and in the means that may be given them towards utilizing their intelligence and initiative.

It is very likely that, in the financial stress which may hold for some years to come, the question of the capital necessary to the develop-

ment of agriculture may become of vital importance, and we intend, during the recess, to take up that subject carefully with a view to increasing present resources >by the intervention of the Dominion Government, if it should be desirable and for the greatest good of the country. , The Government has chiefly in view the creation of an organization to facilitate at reasonable rates loans which may be repayable on the sinking fund principle.

That question has some connection with the scheme of co-operation. Before co-operative societies were established in Belgium, agriculture was not very flourishing.

In 1903, a Belgian economist wrote as follows :

If the principles of scientific farming have now a hold on the country, if the farmers can now get, at a reasonable price, unadulterated manure and fodder for cattle, if they are in a position to secure easily the money they require, if their dwellings, their furniture, their animals can be insured at satisfactory rates, if they have been able to secure from legislation many conveniences, if they have become a power, what has done it all is association.

Denmark's salvation was effected by a complete reform in its methods, brought about by instruction and the application of the co-operative system to the production and diversification of farm produce, instead of by individual efforts.

We here must follow the agricultural policy of Belgium, France and Denmark, if we aim at making rapid though prudent strides in the way of progress.

A Liberal paper on the 27th January, 1916, published the following:

We have organized in certain localities cowtesting associations. For our Ottawa friends, it is indeed a success! In this instance again, the appointments went to good Tories, in most cases ignorant of their duties, who receive salaries of $1,200 a year.

That appreciation of the inspectors of Quebec is absolutely unfair. Hon. Mr. Fisher appointed an inspector in 1911.

Hon. Mr. Burrell has appointed in the province of Quebec nine inspectors, taken among those who had the widest experience in the dairy industry. All the inspectors have received certificates from the St. Hyacinthe Dairy school.

I congratulate the Government on having organized those cow-testing centres each being under an expert who devotes all his time to his duties.

I will now say a few words concerning the live stock branch of the Department of Agriculture. Those who would be fair to the Dominion Minister of Agriculture, are agreed that his policy concerning the live stock industry is a real help "toward agricultural progress. .

88 ,

The Scarcity of breeding stock is at the present time, one of the main obstacles to stock raising in many parts of Canada. So the Minister of Agriculture has undertaken through the live stock branch an important distribution of breeding stock. The work of that branch assumes greater importance from year to year. The Minister of Agriculture is submitting to the House an estimate of $600,000 for the purposes of stock raising. The expenditure for that industry in 1911-12 amounted to $94,000; in 1912-13, to $100,000; in 1914-15, to $300,000, and in 1916-17 it will reach $600,000.

A very large number of farmers all over the Dominion are now alive to the advantages of the minister's policy.

According to some Liberal newspapers, some breeding stock more or less healthy, were bought by the Dominion Minister of Agriculture without proper care. They claim that the stallions and other sires have been put exclusively in the hands of Conservative friends.

This charge is altogether unfair to th,e Government. In fact, according to the regulations under which the breeding stock is distributed, the members of the various associations choose their directors, and the directors appoint the person who will have the care of the sires.

According to an article in Le Soleil, the Department of Agriculture has distributed in Quebec thoroughbreds, standard-breds and other light horses.

In reading the report of the Minister of Agriculture, I find that during 1,914 33 sires have been lent to farmers' associations. In that number there is not a single standard-bred and only one thoroughbred. There are fifteen breeders of Canadian breeds. In the county of l'Islet, one association asked for a Belgian sire and got it.

The critic in Le Soleil would not go to the trouble of applying for information at the department.

The same critic complains that certain breeding stock was bought without care and indiscriminately from the friends of the Government. The minister declares all the sires were bought by persons of experience, the purchases to be subject to the inspection of a veterinary from the Department of Agriculture.

The records of the department will show that barring a few isolated cases, all the animals received have been found highly satisfactory.

I would ask the officials of the department to be very careful in their method of distribution.

Stock raising has a bright future. At the winter fair in Ontario the Minister of Agriculture urged the farmers to increase their stock, that it was the surest and wisest policy.

Meat production begins to come up to the demand, but we can do better. Australia and the Argentine Republic are suffering from a crisis which has told on stock-raising. War has destroyed the European stock. So that it must be our farmers' care to take advantage of those favourable conditions to develop the stock-raising industry.

The operations of the Experimental Farms branch are constantly spreading. I desire to express my thanks to the hon. the Minister of Agriculture for his efforts to insure the success of the experimental farm at Ste. Anne de la Pocatiere. Not long ago, the hon. member for Kamouraska (Mr. - Lapointe) asked in the House that an experimental farm be established in the eastern district of Quebec. At Ste. Anne de la Pocatiere, although the Government have done what was necessary to make a success of the farm, certain improvements are still required. The minister's well-known appreciation of the importance of the farmer will lead him to improve that farm and make it one to be admired by all agriculturists.

Among the various Acts passed to promote farming, few have more importance than that providing for agricultural instruction, an Act which was passed in 1913 by the hon. minister. Under the wise guidance of the minister, the law was passed and the directors of our agricultural colleges have been put in a position to appoint staffs of devoted, educated and experienced teachers. In the province of Quebec, under that statute buildings have been added to and the equipment improved in all the institutions for the promotion of agriculture. I can speak more particularly of the work done at the agricultural college of Ste. Anne da la Pocatiere. Out of the Federal grant, large sums were received to put up new buildings so as to provide better accommodation.

While the religious orders who have charge of our agricultural colleges are working strenuously for [DOT] the advancement of agriculture, the Provincial and Dominion Governments are co-operating to the same end.

We are making great sacrifices towards the development of our agricultural colleges. Young men who have acquired a classical education have taken to farming. The Federal and Provincial Governments should earnestly see to those young men and ap-

point them to positions for which their studies and their talent has, prepared them. It is the best way of encouraging the agricultural schools.

Writers and orators sacred and profane, are trying to instil a taste for farm life and farm management into the minds of the Canadian farmers and youths. They extol the exalted position of the tiller of the soil, who can do so much for his country's prosperity.

The live stock branch has organized farmers' institutes in' French-speaking districts of the province of Quebec, to promote a campaign of patriotism and production. The farmers have taken to them with much earnestness. They showed clearly that their patriotism was responsive to the proposal. The success of the spring campaign in 1915 was due in a large measure to the co-operation *of ministers of all denominations, and especially the parish priests. We are indebted to the clergy who have been active in encouraging an increase of production in the province of Quebec.

In concluding I feel bound to recall the name of a former member of this House, the late Mr. G. A. Gigault, Deputy Minister of Agriculture for the province of Quebec. He was the inspirer of the work carried on by our experimental farms. Mr. Gigault had been, a pioneer in the field of scientific agriculture and has left imperishable monuments of his industry and zeal.

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LIB

Ernest Lapointe

Liberal

Mr. ERNEST LAPOINTE (Kamouraska):

(Translation.) Mr. Speaker, I fully agree with the views expressed by hon. gentlemen opposite when they commend the work done by the Department of Agriculture, through the experimental farms. I am well acquainted with the institution at Ste. Anne de la Pocatiere, which is established in the constituency I have the honour to represent and I realize that, though but a few years in operation, it can already show wonderful results towards the advancement and development of farming in that district.

I remember well that when we petitioned for that experimental station, we enlisted the support of all our friends from other parts of Quebec. I take pleasure to-day in seconding the request of the hon. member for Chicoutimi (Mr. Girard) that a similar establishment be located in the Saguenay and Lac St. John district; which is destined to become a great farming country.

That locality presents climatic and soil conditions altogether different from those prevailing on the south shore of the St. Lawrence. It would certainly be fair to the people of that extensive territory to provide

them with the same agricultural advantages which other parts have been enjoying for years.

I also hold with my hon. friend from l'lslet (Mr. Paquet) that the Government should give preference to the graduates of [DOT]agricultural colleges in appointments as teachers of agriculture. When the experimental station of St. Anne de la Pocatiere was established, a director was not appointed the first year, because the Hon. Mr. Fisher, ex-Minister of Agriculture wanted for the position a man duly certificated and speaking both languages; none were available at the time. Air. Fisher used to say: The pupils are there, but we shall leave the position vacant until they can fill them.

In the fall of 1911, an event took place, which our friends on the other side of the House remember well. A new minister took charge of the Department of Agriculture, and his first care regarding the farm at St. Anne de la Pocatiere was to appoint a director.

I have nothing to say against Mr. Begin who fulfils his duty to the best of his ability and who is very active in his efforts to develop that experimental station; but Mr. Begin is not a graduate of an agricultural college.

However, he had a most important qualification in the eyes of the Government; he had been the Conservative candidate for Levis at the last elections.

Again I would say nothing against him; he certainly does his very best to have this experimental station show actual results. In that he is admirably supported by Mr. Grisdale, the director of the Dominion Experimental Farm, whose knowledge of agriculture is certainly not excelled anywhere. Yet I must point out that the appointment of Mr. Begin is in direct opposition to the views put forth this afternoon by the member for Tlslet (Mr. Paquet) and I believe that is the only case in the Dominion where the director of an expermental farm is not a graduate of an agricultural college.

I now wish to say a word in reply to the strictures just made against the distribution by the Quebec Government of the Federal subsidy for agricultural purposes. How may the supporters of the Government complain, when they themselves it was who requested that the Department of Agriculture of the province of Quebec be kept in tutelage and receive a separate treatment which is nothing but an insult to the province.

In the other provinces, that grant is handed over, without restrictions of any kind, to the provincial Minister of Agriculture,

who uses it as he sees fit and who has the most absolute discretion in its distribution. And after all such should be the relations between governments. But in Quebec, party considerations have prompted the Dominion Government to act differently and an official of the Dominion Department of Agriculture, Mr. J. C. Chapais has been appointed to supervise and superintend the distribution of the federal subsidy. How then can our hon. friends on the other side complain of the manner in which the grant has been spent, when they themselves have requested that its distribution be made under the supervision of a Dominion official? I protest against that guardianship and that kind of protectorate to which our province has been subjected.

The question has been raised, during this debate, concerning the purchase by the Government of race-pure stock. The Minister of Agriculture bought a whqle herd for the experimental farm at Ste. Anne de la Pocatiere. But I regret to see that the Canadian breed of cattle has been completely forgotten. The minister is fully aware of the well known qualities of the Canadian cow. I am particularly anxious to see the breeding of Canadian cows encouraged in the province of Quebec, and to that end, I should ask the minister to see that a few animals of that race be bought and put with the herd at the experimental farm at S'te. Anne.

I have nothing more to add, unless it be that the Minister of Agriculture and the Government may count on our hearty support, every time the estimates contain items required for the promotion and development of agriculture.

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CON

Herménégilde Boulay

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. H. BOULAY (Rimouski):

(Translation.) Air. Speaker, in the few words I have to say to the House, I wish to state that I fully concur in the views of the hon. member for Chicoutimi and Saguenay (Mr. Girard) on agriculture. He has expressed his thanks to. the Government for the encouragement the latter has given generally to farming in Canada, and more particularly in his constituency. The hon. member is a practical farmer, who knows whereof he speaks, and it is to be regretted-be it said passim-that there are not more farmers to be found in this House.

I for one wish to give thanks to the Minister of Agriculture for having begun the establishment of an illustration station in the county of Matane. I hope that in the county of Rimouski, which I have also the honour to represent in this House, the same thing will be done next year.

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LIB

March 3, 1916