January 26, 1916

PRIVATE BILLS INTRODUCED.


Bill (No. 11), respecting British America Nickel Corporation, Limited.-Mr. North-rup. Bill (No. 12), respecting The Calgary and Edmonton Railway Company-Mr. Douglas. Bill (No. 13), respecting The Canadian Pacific Railway Company.-Mr. R. B. Bennett. Bill (No. 14), respecting The Central Western Canada Railway Company.-Mr. Green. Bill (No. 15), respecting The Pacific Northern and Omineea Railway Company. -Mr. Green. Bill (No. 16), respecting The Quebec, Montreal and Southern Railway Company Mr. Lemieux.


REPORTS AND PAPERS.


Copies of general orders promulgated to the Militia for the period between November 25, 1914, and December 24, 1915.-Sir Sam Hughes.


THE GOVERNOR GENERAL'S SPEECH.

ADDRESS IN REPLY.


Consideration of the motion of Mr. Alfred Thompson for an address to His Royal Highness the Governor General in reply to his speech at the opening of the session, resumed from Tuesday, January 25.


?

Hon. S@

Permit me, Mr. Speaker, at the outset of the few remarks which I purpose making, to offer you my hearty congratulations upon your being called to fill the high position which you now occupy. I know that you will pursue the line of your predecessors, and reflect nothing but credit, honour, and dignity upon the position.

I scarcely know, Mr. Speaker, how to begin my remarks. Thus far, nothing of an adverse nature of any importance has been said concerning the department over

which I have the honour to preside. There has been more or less talk concerning the organization called the Shell Committee, but, as was the case with like expenditures at the time of the South African war, the expenditures in connection with the Shell Committee and the conduct of its business do not appertain to this Parliament- In 1890 and 1902 large sums of money were placed by the British Government to the credit of ministers of the Crown in Canada and they were checked out by the ministers or by their attorneys, and when inquiries were made by members of the House as to the disposition of these moneys, they were met with a prompt refusal. On that occasion I myself had a thirst for knowledge. In my locality in the central part of the province of Ontario, rumor had it that a large number of horses had cost the British Government the sum of $157 or $160 each on an average, were, within three or four weeks of the closing of the war, sold for the sum of $38 each- It was in vain that I made inquiries in regard to this matter, so I promptly dropped it, and I have never been enlightened as to the real facts of the case, from that hour until the present. At the outbreak of the present war I declined to follow the line set by my predecessors in that regard, and accordingly, the funds for all these shell contracts uTere placed to the credit of a special account under the control of the Shell Committee. For a double reason, therefore, I do not see that it is the function of this House specially to inquire into any of the transactions in connection with that committee; although I should be more than pleased, so far as I am able, to give all the elucidation of the facts, and all the enlightenment as to them which it is possible for me to give. I attended two meetings of the Shell Committee, the first and the last-but I shall take that up later.

I wish to deal, as briefly as possible and yet as fully as possible, with some of the statements that have been made by gentlemen on the other side-possibly by gentlemen on both sides-as to the impatience of the troopts to get across the water. We all realize that the troops are impatient to get away, but I am sure that every one who understands the situation knows that upon the British Government and the British Government alone depends the calling of the troops across the water. Canada today stands prepared to send twenty regiments as soon as transports can come for

them, but the British Government have not the transports available, nor have they huts available for winter quarters. In general, without going into the details of the matter, 'it is impossible for us to send the troops over until they are asked for on the other side. We feel that it would be good for these splendid fellows to get over and 'to obtain a stepping-stone training in England before they cross to the front to do their duty for King and country. However, it does not necessarily follow that because the troops are kept in Canada their training is not good. We feel that -the troops that were trained in Canada for the first division were second to no troops in the world; I know that the troops that have recently gone over are favourably reported upon. Our boys who have gone across the . water aTe better trained in shooting and manoeuvring than are any troops on the other side that have been under training for a similar length of time. This speaks well for the training of our troops in Canada. This impatience to go to the front is a matter, affecting not only those who are now training for overseas service. Personally, my own heart's ambition was to go to the front, but my duties at home prevented me from doing so. Possibly I am filling a better job here than I could at the front. It is true that I had my own ideas of how this war should have been conducted at the beginning. It is true, as everyone knows, that your humble servant, before the war began, predicted that this war would be a trench war, and endeavoured to lay plans to have it thus carried out from the beginning. However, I feel that my position here is much larger than it could possibly be in command of a mere division or corps at the front.

I d-o wish to say a word for a great many of my officers who cannot go to the front. Surgeon-General Fiset served in the South African war with great distinction, under fire and not under fire. He was always a friend of the soldier and was always ready to do his duty fearlessly and well. It would have been the joy of his life had he been able to go to the front; but it was impossible to spare him. The same thing is true of General Macdonald, Quartermaster General, was anxious to go overseas to look after his department, but he could not be spared. So with many more, General Gwatkin, General Hodgins, Colonel Winter, every officer on the staff has been anxious to go to the front, but we could not spare them.

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Wilfrid Laurier (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Liberal

Sir WILFRID LAURIER:

General Lessard-do his duties prevent him going?

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Samuel Hughes (Minister of Militia and Defence)

Liberal-Conservative

Sir SAM HUGHES:

And there is General Lessard also. No doubt he is anxious to go to the front, although I have not seen an application from him. We know that his health is not good. There are -also General John Hughes, General Logie, Colonel Mew-burn, soldiers second to none, some of whom have distinguished themselves in war before, who have had more experience than others, but wiho have not been sent to the front, because they cannot possibly be spared. Therefore no one has been invidiously selected to remain at home. I think that if [DOT]any one has a right to go to the front General Fiset or I would have that right; but we realize the situation and aTe content to stay at home and do our duty in Canada, be that duty well performed or ill performed.

Reference has been made to machine guns. That subject, in fact, has been discussed very fully in the House, and I am sure every one here will agree with me that this is one topic that ought not to be openly discussed in Parliament. I will gladly furnish to the Prime Minister, and I am sure he will be only too glad to give to the leader of the Opposition, a full statement in connection with the disposition of machine guns, under our own purchases and under the purchases made with the sums that have been contributed from time to time. I may say that the guns are coming in now with considerable rapidity, and I am satisfied that the statement, when it is furnished to those who have a right to see it and who are concerned in it, will more than satisfy them that everything is being done that could be done, that the wishes of those who contributed money to this cause are being carried out to the letter, and that the wishes of the Canadian people and the Canadian Government in the same regard are also being observed to the letter. If that will satisfy the Tight hon. the leader of the Opposition, or any member of Parliament who chooses, we will show the details in connection with the matter and I am sure when they see them they will.be more than satisfied.

Reference has been made to the discharge of soldiers, and to returned soldiers, and to pensions. I believe that these matters have been satisfactorily explained to the House and disposed of. However, if there is any question put to me at any time I will be only too glad to give any data in connection with these subjects.

I might point out in connection with the training of officers, that when the war broke out we had a large number of very finely trained officers. A great many of the best of these naturally were selected to go with the first contingent. But we had to keep a lot of them home in order to supervise the training of the new regiments. However, as contingent after contingent went over, we were obliged-and we were glad in one way and sorry in another to do so-to send these good officers to the front, until we must now train up in their place a large number of officers to fill the gaps in the new regiments1 which are1 being raised all over Canada. In order to get the best men for these positions we are about to open military schools in every military district in the Dominion of Canada, and these will be opened at a very early date. Admission to them is practically open to every man who has any sort of a decent education and shows any fitness whatever for soldiering. Certificates will be issued to men who attend these schools, showing the qualification which they have attained, whether it be sergeant, lieutenant, captain, major or so on. In order to make it as democratic as possible, we are taking men in from week to week and giving them as thorough a training as possible, graduating them from class to class and stage to stage, until they are finally able to get the certificate of whatever grade they aspire to and are .able to attain. It is partly on the lines of the old military schools which we had in the old military days in Canada, and partly on more democratic lines. The plan is meeting the approval of all those who have had an opportunity to look into it, and I am satisfied that the success of .these schools will be such that every one will have the same good opinion of them that we have already formed.

In connection with every overseas battalion organized, we immediately organized schools for the training of non-commissioned officers, and also for the training of officers in the district. At the present moment we have hundreds of officers in the schools. But under this system, if an officer has not been able to attend on .the date set for the opening of a school, he has had to wait for three months in order to take his course. Under the new policy they will be able to enter every week, and thus we will prevent useless delay in the case of many excellent men. A splendid lot of men are coming forward and offering themselves as privates, non-commissioned officers and

officers. In this regard I wish to point out that a large number of men of the class of engineers, business men, men of strong character and superior education are tearing themselves away from their occupations in life and are coming forward. They are put into training at once and from these the most efficient will be chosen to fill up the new corps.

I might say, in passing, that the right hon. leader of the Opposition (Sir Wilfrid Laurier) last session brought up the question of the purchase of the Valcartier camp site. I am pleased to inform him that the claims of the proprietors have been before the Exchequer Court, and, I think, have now practically all been settled.

I have also observed that some question was raised in this debate about Colt pistols and Colt machine guns. As this is a Canadian matter, I wish to give the fullest information at once. At the beginning of the war, as every one knows, the United States manufacturers doubted whether they could legally contract during war time with a foreign government engaged in war for the delivery or sale of munitions of war. Ihe United States Government, after a month or two, settled that matter in the affirmative, deciding that the manufactu-ers could sell. In the meantime the British Government was purchasing a very large supply from the United States. The problem was how to get these supplies out without pos-' sibly involving the manufacturers in trouble, because they would not assume the responsibility of shipping direct to a belligerent power. I took the matter up. I se ured the services of a life-long friend of mine Col. J. W. Allison, a man in whom I have had life-long confidence, a man who is the soul of honour and kindness. Thou' sands and tens of thousands, yes, millions of dollars' worth of war materials were brought in from the United States to Canada by arrangement with our Customs Department, and were then shipped by way of Canadian routes to the old land. Finally, Col. Allison followed the matter up, and it was arranged with Washington that a declaration should be made that these commodities could be shipped by these people direct from New York, or any other United States port, or directly to Canada, without violating any United States law. That accounts for 'the letter read by the hon. member for Carleton, N. B. (Mr. Carvell), yesterday as being sent by the director of contracts of the Dominion of Canada to Col. Allison in regard to these shipments. He

was the officer I had employed, he was kind enough to oblige me in this regard. It is true that the matter of the Colt pistols has been before the Davidson Commission. Inasmuch as this matter has also been referred to, I may be permitted to read to the House a letter which I received from the Colt firm. At the time the question of Colt pistols was brought before Judge Davidson, a wire was sent to the Colt Company asking how they happened to he selling these pistols in Canada to commercial dealers at a lower price than the Government had paid for them. I had had the assurance of the Company-I did not observe at the time that the words " sold to any Government " had been introduced-that the lowest price at which they sold to any Government was $18.50. I naturally concluded that the Government would get a better price than the wholesale merchants, but I was very much surprised to learn that great as our business with the Company had been, it was small compared with their business with some single wholesale merchants. I may say that an officer of the Company and another officer came promptly to Ottawa, and knowing that Judge Davidson was going to hold an inquiry, promptly offered to appear before him and give a full explanation concerning the prices. This company has an arrangement with the United States Government providing that the United States Government in their own factories can make one of those pistols to two made by the company, and they control to a certain degree the price of the article. The United States Government takes hundreds of thousands of pistols, and, as probably the House is aware, the different states in the Union have for war purposes an agreement with the Federal Government that the equipment and material and weapons of the Federal Government should also be adopted by the various states of the Union. This is the letter received from the Golt Company:

Hartford, Conn., U.S.A., *

13th January, 1916. Major-General Sir Samuel Hughes,

Minister of Militia and Defence, Ottawa, Ontario, Canada.

,Sir,-In reference to the price at which this Company has sold and Is selling automatic pistols, Cal. "45, to the Government of Canada and to wholesale hardware or sporting goods concerns throughout the Dominion, we desired to place you in possession of facts which we1 believe fully justify our position and account! for the difference in price to the wholesale distributers.

Policy.-For many years this Company has marketed its product very largely through the

medium of the wholesale distributers who in turn sell the arms to the small retail dealers, by whom the arms are again sold to the individual consumer.

The established wholesale list price of the automatic pistol, Cal. *45, in the United States of America is $18.50. From this price the distributer is allowed a discount of 12J per cent and 2 per cent for cash, also an additional commission of 5 per cent, provided he agrees to co-operate in the upholding of the resale price and to assist to the best of his ability in creating a demand for the Colt's arms.

These concessions in price we believe he is entitled to for the advertising done through the valuable space given in his catalogue for illustration and description of the pistol, to compensate him for investment represented by stock of pistols carried in his store, some of which he often keeps on hand for many months before selling, and to help share in other selling expenses involved in the conduct of his business.

Our customers in Canada are requested to use as their selling price the United States price of $18.50, plus duty into Canada, which at present is 371 per cent, plus an amount sufficient to cover carriage charges and incidental expenses.

Government business.-This company has in its selling arrangements with the dealers, reserved government business to be handled direct. Such business is of a spasmodic nature, not coming with any regularity as commercial business does, and usually when it comes in any volume, is due to abnormal conditions requiring special attention.

Since the outbreak of the present war, we have had very large orders from several governments involved and each one, like your own, has requested us to do everything possible to effect speedy deliveries. This we have done at very great inconvenience and largely increased expense of manufacture. We have had to provide a large amount of additional space, procure a great many new machines, pay a much higher rate of wage to workmen, and in addition, have given each and every workman a bonus of 12 i petr cent of his regular wage in order to get the fullest measure of co-opeiaf'on and loyalty. All pistols made for governments are subjected to unusual tests ard most rigid inspection which involves extra expense.

These very unusual expenditures have added materially to the cost of the automatic p stol, Cal. *45 and in consequence this company has not since the beginning of the war, sold any of those pistols to any government other than the United States of America at a price lower than $18.50, neither is it prepared to consider doing so. We have supplied and are at present suppling a great many of these same pistols to other governments involved in the war, at same price you paid. This price has been uniform, regardless of quantity purchased.

The fact is, we consider the price most reasonable in view of the service desired during a period of great stress, and we are proud to be able to serve so well -as we have succeeded in doing, our friends who have wanted help. Had we selfishly cons dered only our own interests, we could have placed much of our product at prcm:um prices, but have not done this, preferring to be loyal to our friends.

These pistols are made under a license for wlrch wa pay a considerable royalty to the in-19}

ventor who also has licensed a European manufacturer to make pistols of his invention, giving to them the exclusive right to sell in certain countries where we are not at liberty to offer our pistols. This fact makes it incumbent upon us to render strict account of the ultimate destination of each pistol we produce under the license, necessitating our exercising very rigid control of the sales. We would not consent to the resale of the pistols at a price less than $18.50 by any dealer who buys from us. _____

Your orders to us for automatic pistols, Cal. .45, aggregated 5,000. We have regular wholesale dealers who each year purchase a greater number of pistols and revolvers than that from us. Business coming to us regularly from month to month, year by year, is much more profitable than irregular orders which demand unusual facilities to supply.

This Company has its regular corps ot travelling representatives throughout the world, who each year devote considerable time to the negotiation of government business, although in many countries, as in your own, many years pass without any business being secured. In consequence, a portion of the selling expense involved during each of these several years must be taken into consideration when the selling price to governments is arranged. Commercial business each year bears its own apportionment oif the selljlng expense but in government business, the sales for some one particular year or season, such as the present, must bear the allotment of several years selling expense.

We are not unappreciative of the orders with which you have honoured us, hut we want you to fully understand the conditions under which we have to operate.

I may say further concerning Ool. Allison-I shall refer to the matter of fuses in a very short time-that in all his dealings with business firms in the United States he has in each instance, so I am informed and believe, given those with whom he dealt the following letter, or one similar:

May 14, 1914.

Confirming my verbal statements to you of yesterday and in order that there can not be any room for misunderstanding, I now reaffirm in writing my position in connection with the fuse question.

I have been and am doing my very best to secure the lowest prices possible for the Government, and above all things wish to do whatever I can to aid them in procuring the best workmanship, lowest prices, and largest deliveries possible; and if you are bidding for the manufacture of this fuse for the Shell Committee or the Canadian Government, I want it distinctly understood that I do not want any profit added to the price under any conditions, with the intention of providing a commission for me, as I would not under any circumstances accept a commission of any kind from anybody, in connection with this matter.

Very truly yours,

(Sgd.) J. Wesley Allison.

At this point I may be permitted to state briefly where our soldiers are stationed. At the present time we have about 60,000

soldiers in France, nearly 60,000 in England, and the balance of 250,000 odd training in Canada. We have three divisions at the front, and a fourth is in course of preparation. Other troops are ready in Canada to cross to England, and the troops in England are getting ready to cross to France. We trust that in a very short time we shall have the different units, the artillery, infantry, army medical corps and army service corps complete for the four divisions at the front.

I observed a remark concerning complaints as to recruiting. For the first contingent, our recruiting plans were, I (think, different from anything that had ever occured before. There was really a call to arms, like the fiery cross passing through the Highlands of Scotland or the mountains of Ireland in former days. In place of being forwarded to the district officers commanding, the word was wired to every officer commanding a unit in any part of Canada to buckle on his harness and get busy. The consequence was that in a short time we had the boys on the way for the first contingent, whereas it would have taken several weeks to have got the word around through the ordinary channels. Tinder that plan the contingent was practically on the way to Europe before it could have been mobilized under the ordinary plan. For the second mobilization, during last winter and summer, there was no immediate hurry, and we followed the ordinary routine of going through the divisions. It was found that recruiting still kept up well. For the contingent which is being recruited this winter, realizing that we would have a large number of troops for which the British Government would not likely have use for another month or two; at all events, we followed the plan of billeting them in their own localities. For example, in my own county, there are twenty or thirty places where troops are being billeted during the winter. A great many people say that you cannot control men if you keep them isolated. I believe that nearly all of those gentlemen who are wearing the uniform are just as capable of governing themselves as are the people who take so much interest in looking after them. These men are good, law-abiding citizens of Canada, decent, respectable fellows, the best in the land. In the county I have the honour to represent we have turned out upwards of 3,000 men, and we have about 700 there still, and not one solitary case of misconduct has occurred since the beginning of the war amongst those troops, except in the case of a couple of fellows who got boozy one evening, and I do

not know that that is limited to soldiers. The same record holds good throughout the country. The consequences are that, where the system which has been inaugurated has been properly carried out, we have these men billeted in villages here and there and all over the country, many living at their own homes at night, going to drill every morning, surrounded by the best associations and, little by little, acquiring that discipline, self-control, and knowledge of military drill that are essential to the upbuilding of the soldier. Morover, we find that in all these localities, they can engage in military sports. We furnish them with miniature rifles and dummy targets, and these fellows put in a very entertaining, instructive and upbuilding time. This system also saves us the trouble and expense of furnishing large buildings in the principal centres, renting buildings at enormous expense wherein to house these men. It must also be remembered that when you bring men to the larger centres you bring them, not to the comfort and convenience of these localities, but to temptations which do not certainly contribute to the upbuilding. I do not know that I need add anything to what I have already said with regard to the plan of recruiting.

I wish to take up for a few moments that very-much-discui&sed question in days gone by, the Boss rifle. The proof charge calibre of the Boss rifle, following the former Lee-Enfield rifle, was .459 at the base. I have given all the figures to the leaders on both sides of the House, and I would be glad to supply them to any hon. member who may wish to see them. This was the exact size practically of the cartridge of the .303 British rifle. It was found soon after the war broke out and before a Canadian rifle was fired at all, that the brass of the cartridge case was too soft. The many troubles and disasters that from time to time befel the British rifle and the soldiers between Mons and the Marne, and in subsequent en0agements, were found to be traceable to bad ammunition. The Princess Pats, who used the Lee-Enfield rifle, met with disaster and trouble owing to the bad ammunition supplied them-it was not due to the rifle but to bad ammunition. When the Canadian division fought at St. Julien -that magnificent and memorable fight- they largely used our own Canadian ammunition, which was absolutely perfect, as were some other brands of ammunition. Some of the American ammunition was good, a great deal of the British am-mujnitioim was good, but there were

three lots of British- ammunition! that were had, and t/hey were not recognized at the time by our boys or by the British regiments as being bad). The consequence was that both at St. Julien and Fastuibert, where the Canadians used our own Canadian rifle and our own Canadian ammunition, there was no trouble. At Festubert there were a number of rifles that jammed, but it was found to be due to the fact that the ammunition was defective and not the rifle. I may say that as soon as the cry went up about jamming rifles, I immediately took steps to have the Ross rifle chamber enlarged to .464, which is two-thousandths of an inch larger than the Lee-Enfield, which is .462. A good deal of fault was found at the time about this, but the House, I am sure will be glad to learn that now the British Lee-Enfield is being enlarged to exactly the same size, one more instance in which they are following in the steps of the Canadian people, they realizing that it is better to have the ammunition slightly emaller than the 'chamber of thei rifle rather than that it should be too tight a fit. The reason is that dirt will get on the cartridge; the brass of the cartridge case will sometimes be soft in consequence of too much annealing, and if it is too soft there is going to he jamming. Therefore, at the present time, I am in a position to state that reports from the front say that both rifles, with the enlarged chamber, are giving the best satisfaction. On January 18 General Carson sent the following report:

Full report from General MacDougall states that no cases of jamming of either rifles have occurred in England for months and the confidence of the men in hoth weapons and ammunition has heen fully established. Bad ammunition which formerly jammed in both rifles has been withdrawn.

Another report received by Col. Helmer with reference to the cause of jamming, said that it was due to defective ammunition. He says:

A large amount of "B," "G" and "N" ammunition in some mysterious way again found its way to the Canadian trenches. This ammunition was condemned a year ago nearly. Result: when rifles were used for rapid Are, after about 60 rounds, bolts began to hang- an entirely expected result. What the men do not know-and what no one appears to have had courage to demonstrate to them is that with the same ammunition the Enfield rifle cannot be relied upon to fire 15 rounds.

The House will be glad to know that both rifles are now in perfect condition, and that the supply of ammunition is very

carefully watched to see that nothing goes wrong.

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Robert Laird Borden (Prime Minister; Secretary of State for External Affairs; President of the Privy Council)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Sir ROBERT BORDEN:

Has the Lee-Enfield rifle been enlarged?

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Samuel Hughes (Minister of Militia and Defence)

Liberal-Conservative

Sir SAM HUGHES:

The new British

Lee-Enfield rifle has been enlarged to exactly the same size as the Canadian rifle-.464 and corresponding sizes right down through. There has been a reference made to the last Lee-Enfield rifle, and it was only about three weeks ago that I learned that the new British rifle had been enlarged to the same size as ours, namely, -464.

When the war broke out, hon. gentlemen will remember that my right hon. friend the Prime Minister stated in the House that in so far as he was concerned, the conduct of this war would be non-partisan and non-political. As far as my observation goes, and I have observed very carefully, he has religiously carried out his promise. On that same occasion, or a couple of days afterwards, I also made a similar statement in so faT as I was concerned, following the lead set by the Prime Minister. I said that in the conduct of the militia of this country, where Liberals and Conservatives were facing the music alike, there would be no party politics.

My good friend from Carleton, N.B. (Mr. Carvell), in the course of his address yesterday, trusted that I would raise the veil with regard to shells, and explain some party politics in that connection in my own county. I will do so with the very greatest pleasure. In my county there are twenty-seven to thirty organizations where shell boxes ' could readily be manufactured. I think only two or three of those organizations, in my county, have obtained orders for shell boxes. I was amazed and very angry when I saw that so few contracts had been given. I certainly thought that the Shell Committee, knowing that my time was occupied elsewhere, should have looked after the county I have the honour to represent a little better than it did. Let us see who these three firms were.

The first is a firm in Fenelon Falls, a most charming town. Mr. Tiers, a very estimable gentleman, who runs a little planing mill there, had not the necessary facilities, and so he obtained the assistance of Mr. Burgoyne, who put up considerable money. Mr. Tiers is one of the most intelligent and decent Liberals you can find in the whole community, and I was only too glad that he and Charley Burgoyne

were in a position to get the contract. The veil has been lifted as regards Fenelon Falls. .

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Frank Broadstreet Carvell

Liberal

Mr. CARVELL:

1 am afraid the veil will have to 'be rent again before all will be plain.

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Samuel Hughes (Minister of Militia and Defence)

Liberal-Conservative

Sir SAM HUGHES:

The next firm is F. W. Wilford-a good name, whether as surname or Christian. Mr. Wilford is from a staunch old Liberal family in the Eastern Townships of the province of Quebec. He saw fit to marry a charming Lindsay girl some years ago. I have never asked him for a vote, or offered him any advice on the subject, so I am not in a position to say how he votes, but all the evidence I have on the subject points him out as a staunch Liberal, well acquainted, I believe, with the leader of the Opposition. I hope, however, that he has become intelligent by this time.

The next firm is the Digby Lumber Company. I do not know who the members of that firm are, but the gentleman at the head of it is a good Liberal.

The next is a firm by the name of the Stinson Company. Stinson's father was a good honest old Tory, and young Stinson is a partner of Mr. E. J. McLaughlin, a bosom friend of the leader of the Opposition. He, McLaughlin, is a gentleman whom it has been my privilege to trim on two or three occasions at election time, a very estimable gentleman in civil life, but in politics, Oh dear! The veil has now been lifted so far as my county is concerned. I think the Shell Committee has neglected my county shamefully, and the next time I meet Sir Alexander Bertram I shall tell him so. My time was so occupied that I could not join the horde of promoters and others who were hanging around the doors of the Shell Committee.

Let us take up next the Militia appointments. Two divisional commanders out of three are good staunch Liberals. I refer to General Currie, of Victoria, and to General Turner, of Quebec, two of the finest fellows who ever stood inside jackets, and two of the best men to be found in the Dominion.

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Wilfrid Laurier (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Liberal

Sir WILFRID LAURIER:

Hear, hear.

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Samuel Hughes (Minister of Militia and Defence)

Liberal-Conservative

Sir SAM HUGHES:

Not a solitary Conservative in the whole Dominion objected when I nominated these men for brigadiers long ago. The other one is General Mercer. As regards the politics of the brigadiers, I understand they are about half and half. I do not know what my own son's politics

may be, but I know he will vote straight anyway. As regards the lower commanders, I am told by those who have looked up the matter-I have not looked it up myself, it would make no difference anyway-that three-fourths of them are Liberal and one-fourth Tory. That is only what we should expect to find, and I say this seriously. The Liberal party was in power sixteen years, and naturally under the system that was first used a number of young gentlemen of the Liberal persuasion would come to the front, just as a number of young Tories are coming to the front to-day because -the Conservative party is in power. That is only human nature. When I took office a great many of the gentlemen occupying senior positions in the service were Liberal. I might point out that a gentleman has written me-I do not know whether it is true or not-that in one regiment in Nova Scotia twenty-four of the twenty-eight officers are Liberals and the other four Tories, that three of those Tories are at the front, but the Liberals are all occupying soft jobs at home. Whether that is true or not I can not Shy. I would not recognize such twaddle anyway.

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L-C

Samuel Hughes (Minister of Militia and Defence)

Liberal-Conservative

Sir SAM HUGHES:

I shall be glad to tell my hon. friend privately, but I can assure him it is not the regiment to which he belongs. As regards the medical men, I am told that of the forty-eight senior officers only four or five are Conservatives. General Jones is a good staunch Liberal. General Roberts, one of the loveliest boys and best soldiers and best medical men that was ever in a hospital, is also a staunch Liberal. Fotheringham is also a Liberal, and so is Scott, who is my own nephew; he is a black Liberal. Dr. McEwen, of Toronto, is a most magnificent man. I took him on account of his long medical service. I also picked out Dr. Bruce of Toronto. I found that Dr. Bruce, Prof. Anderson, Dr. Orr, and others had been in the service years ago as regimental surgeons. I have in my possession a notification, sent to one of these gentlemen who had applied to join the new Army Medical Corps. The writer of this note, a Liberal doctor, regretted that he could not accept him for the medical corps, as he was a Tory. I had, therefore, no hesitation in granting Dr. Bruce, who is a famous surgeon in Toronto, the same status he would have had he remained in the corps. He has been over on the other side.

As regards shell contracts, I am informed by those who have looked into the matter that four-fifths of the contractors are Liberals and that seven-tenths of the shell-box contractors are Liberals.

I now come to a very interesting part of the discussion, namely, the Shell Committee. And here let me frankly admit to the House that it is my baby; I am the father of the concern, be it for good or be it for bad, and I purpose sticking to it as long as it has a button left on its jacket. Let me point out the facts of the case, and when I get through I purpose giving some evidence-not hearsay, but evidence. In July, 1914, owing to the fact that the Kaiser had been rattling his sabre up and down the streets of Berlin for a year or two, and that the clang of the Krupp forges had been keeping the financial and commercial world a little uneasy for some considerable time, business in this country was at a stand-still. Factories were closed, dinner pails were empty and commercial and financial disaster faced Canada, Great Britain and almost every country on the face of the earth. That was the general condition prevailing when war broke out, and the breaking out of war did not make the capitalists of the country any more ready to invest their money, or bankers any more ready to back up commercial men in any enterprises they might undertake. When war was declared Canada fearlessly did her duty. The right hon. the Prime Minister immediately cabled to the British Government an offer of a division comprising from 17,000 to 20,000 soldiers. On the night of the 7th of August, 1914, this offer was accepted. Accordingly, the soldiers were summoned to Valcartier-but of that I will speak later-

On the 24th August, 1914, the War Office sent us -a letter, asking if we could procure for them a small order tor shells in the United States, On reflection, it struck me that the highly equipped industries of Canada, which were standing idle at the time, could readily manufacture shells. I I had seen shrapnel shells being made in the arsenal at Quebec, and it is merely a blacksmith's shop. Accordingly, we called a meeting of the Canadian manufacturers.

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Frank Broadstreet Carvell

Liberal

Mr. CARVELL:

Do I understand the minister to say that shells had been manufactured in Canada 'before the outbreak of the war?

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Samuel Hughes (Minister of Militia and Defence)

Liberal-Conservative

Sir SAM HUGHES:

Yes, at the arsenal at Quebec. About 75 shells per day was our output, and 75 per cent were bad. The

hon, member will understand that an inquiry was made some time ago, and it was found that out of 75 shells that we picked out to test, fifteen would not go into the guns, I know whereof I speak.

At that meeting of manufacturers, which was a very large one, they were so nervous over t'heir capital that only a very small number-I forget the exact number-could be induced to enter into the business at all, and they could not be induced to do so until we took them down to Quebec and showed them during a period of several days bow the manufacturing of shells was done, comparing our not up-to-date equipment with the splendid machinery in their -big factories. In some cases we had to get them financially encouraged by the banking institutions before we could induce that small number at the beginning to enter into the shell business. We lent them our military experts, officers of the department; and, in passing, let me say that we lent these experts also to the big firms in the United States which had been making shells and which had asked the privilege of consulting our experts and seeing our factories turning out -shells. We also sent our experts from factory to factory m the United States to give instruction in the making of shells for the British Government, because the urgency was so great. The Shell Committee was then formed. Inis is a sample -of a shrapnel shell (exhibiting shell.) I do not purpose to cause an explosion.

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January 26, 1916