January 18, 1916

LIB

William Pugsley

Liberal

Mr. PUGSLEY:

-the examination, shallow as it was, brought forth this fact,-my hon. friend the Solicitor General will have ample time to answer me; if he will only allow me to finish my sentence I will sit down-the examination, shallow as it was, brought forth this fact, Mr. Speaker, that the Government, of which my hon. friend tire Solicitor General is a member, paid for those submarines, although they had been rejected by the Chilian Government because they were not up to the specification, $332,000 more than the Chilian Government would have paid if they had been up to the specifications.

Mr. MEIGHEN,: Will-the hon. gentleman say, if he complains of the investigation, why after making the charges in the House he was not there to substantiate them?

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LIB

William Pugsley

Liberal

Mr. PUGSLEY:

Let me remind my hon. friend that a very able lawyer, one much better able to conduct the case than I would be, appeared before the commission in the city of Victoria, and asked that' in the interests of the people, and in the interests of the Liberal party, of which party I happen to be an humble member, he might be permitted to appear before the commission, to produce witnesses and to examine witnesses, and that right was denied him by the chairman of the commission.' I had it from the gentleman himself, because I happened to meet him in the city of Vancouver, and he told me of the application he had made, and which I had also noticed in the newspapers, and he told me that the chairman of the commission had denied him the right to appear and to examine witnesses.

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CON

Arthur Meighen (Solicitor General of Canada)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. MEIGHEN:

He was not denied the right to produce witnesses to substantiate the charges if he could. [DOT]

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LIB

William Pugsley

Liberal

Mr. PUGSLEY:

That is quibbling not worthy of one occupying the distinguished position of Solicitor General of this country.

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CON

Arthur Meighen (Solicitor General of Canada)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. MEIGHEN:

Let us have this clear; it is just as well to have it cleared up.

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An hon. MEMBER:

It cannot be cleared

up.

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CON

Arthur Meighen (Solicitor General of Canada)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. MEIGHEN:

The hon. gentleman says that the right was refused to counsel to produce witnesses and cross-examine witnesses. I am aware that counsel representing the Liberal party was refused the right of cross-examination for the reasons given

by the Commissioner, who has been commended by almost every Liberal paper in Canada. .

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LIB
CON

Arthur Meighen (Solicitor General of Canada)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. MEIGHEN:

He was not refused the right to produce witnesses.

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LIB

Frank Broadstreet Carvell

Liberal

Mr. CARVELL:

It was the greatest whitewashing operation in Canada.

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LIB

William Pugsley

Liberal

Mr. PUGSLEY:

I would not like to say one word against Sir Charles Davidson, but from my long experience in the courts, where you have a lawyer on one side, and no lawyer on the other; where you do not have a lawyer to examine and cross-examine, the judge may unwittingly do the greatest possible injustice. Let me give an illustration. I watched with considerable interest the newspapers in Vancouver when I happened to be there for a day or two, to see whether it would occur to the gentleman who represented this Conservative Government; the Government with which Sir Richard McBride is, or was, so closely allied before a certain event took place; I watched to see whether any question would be asked of Mr. Logan as to how it was that he had carried on the negotiation for the purchase of the submarines for a fortnight and yet did not know what the price was to be, and why he simply whistled oyer the telephone when he found that the enormous price of $1,150,000 wias named. I was struck with amazement to find that when Mr. Paterson, the man who had been in Seattle when the submarines were tested, and when the experts of the Chilian Government refused to accept them-I was struck with amazement to find that he was not asked as to the nature of the test, or as to how the submarines acted under the test. I was amazed to find that Mr. Paterson had not been asked to produce his. books. I was amazed to find that no question had been asked of Sir Richard McBride, or of Mr. Paterson as to the grounds on which the former had represented that the Chilian Government were not able to pay for the submarines-a government which in respect to one article alone receives a revenue every year of $45,000,000; a government which has never defaulted during the past fifty years, at least in respect to any of its obligations; a government wihich stands high in financial circles, as a government which always carries out its obligations; I was amazed to find that the Commissioner had not asked him whether or not the Chilian Government had practically paid the whole amount of

the contract price before the inspection and rejection took place. I was amazed to find that not n word, had been asked upon all these vital questions, which a law student of six weeks' experience would have felt it necessary to ask.

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CON

Arthur Meighen (Solicitor General of Canada)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. MEIGHEN:

Why* did you not go and ask them?

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LIB

William Pugsley

Liberal

Mr. PUGSLEY:

I was not at the investigation ;

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LIB

Edward Mortimer Macdonald

Liberal

Mr. MACDONALD:

He would probably have been refused.

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LIB

William Pugsley

Liberal

Mr. PUGSLEY:

If the Government had said to me: We will allow you to go to Victoria to act as counsel and to examine and cross-examine witnesses before Sir Charles Davidson, I would gladly have gone, and I would not have asked a farthing for expenses, because I would have elicited the truth, I think. But further, I was surprised to find that none of these gentlemen were asked to explain why three .cheques were given, why a draft on a Seattle bank was given, and why the remainder was divided *into two sums, one of which was a Bank draft amounting to $500,000 'and the other was foir the balamee out of which the bank charges 'and exchange were taken, Not oinie single question was aislked in regard to that. What was asked of these witnesses was: did you pay any graft in Canada; did you pay .any graft or commission to anybody in iCanladlal? forgetting, apparently that Seattle in the United States is onlly forty miles away. Weill,possibly my hon. friend is sabiisfiecL

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CON

Arthur Meighen (Solicitor General of Canada)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. MEIGHEN:

I am satisfied of one thing only, and that is that the hon. gentleman is absolutely unfair and has deliberately misstated the facts.

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Some hon. MEMBERS:

Order, order.

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CON

Auguste-Charles-Philippe-Robert Landry (Speaker of the Senate)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. SPEAKER:

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LIB

William Pugsley

Liberal

Mr. PUGSLEY:

Mr. Speaker, do not ask the hon. gentleman to take it back.

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CON

Auguste-Charles-Philippe-Robert Landry (Speaker of the Senate)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. SPEAKER:

If the hon. gentleman (Mr. Pugsley) is satisfied -

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January 18, 1916