January 18, 1916

LIB

William Pugsley

Liberal

Mr. PUGSLEY:

Pierpont's brother? If

he keeps on manufacturing shells he will be Pierpont's partner and it will not be long before he can laugh at Pierpont Morgan. This gentleman, I am told, got an order at a considerably higher price than that which had been previously given, and at a very recent date, showing that the Shell Committee was disposed to recognize the arduous services which had been performed by Mr. Morgan in his efforts to defeat the Liberal candidate in the constituency of Richelieu. Then, again, as showing that the Shell Committee were looking around to find where favours could be bestowed, we find that a merchant in one of the constituencies in Ontario-I am not sure whether it is the constituency represented by the Minister of Militia-got an order for shell boxes. He had no plant, none whatever. He immediately proceeded to farm it out, gave it to a man having a planing mill, and that man proceeded to fill the order. And so I am sure, if my information is correct, all over this country orders of that character were given, given to the middleman, the man who had no machinery, and given in this way for the purpose of distributing patronage and doing * what was a gross injustice to those who had manufacturing plants.

Topic:   THE GOVERNOR GENERAL'S SPEECH.
Subtopic:   ADDRESS IN REPLY.
Permalink
CON

Robert Rogers (Minister of Public Works)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. ROGERS:

Unfortunately about 75

per cent of the orders went to Liberals.

Topic:   THE GOVERNOR GENERAL'S SPEECH.
Subtopic:   ADDRESS IN REPLY.
Permalink
LIB
CON

John Douglas Hazen (Minister of Marine and Fisheries; Minister of the Naval Service)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. HAZEN:

That is certainly the case

in the city of St. John in my hon. friend's constituency.

Topic:   THE GOVERNOR GENERAL'S SPEECH.
Subtopic:   ADDRESS IN REPLY.
Permalink
LIB

William Pugsley

Liberal

Mr. PUGSLEY:

In my own constituency? I suppose the hon. member refers to Haley Bros.

Topic:   THE GOVERNOR GENERAL'S SPEECH.
Subtopic:   ADDRESS IN REPLY.
Permalink
CON

John Douglas Hazen (Minister of Marine and Fisheries; Minister of the Naval Service)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. HAZEN:

To the Messrs. McAvity

and the Phoenix Foundry.

Topic:   THE GOVERNOR GENERAL'S SPEECH.
Subtopic:   ADDRESS IN REPLY.
Permalink
LIB

William Pugsley

Liberal

Mr. PUGSLEY:

The Messrs. McAvity

got their order as a sub-order from the Canadian Car Company, as part of an order which the Canadian Car Company had obtained for shells for the Russian Government. And while, my hon. friend is upon that subject, what would he say about the York and Cornwall Cotton Mill?

Topic:   THE GOVERNOR GENERAL'S SPEECH.
Subtopic:   ADDRESS IN REPLY.
Permalink
CON

John Douglas Hazen (Minister of Marine and Fisheries; Minister of the Naval Service)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. HAZEN:

What would the hon. gentleman say about it?

Topic:   THE GOVERNOR GENERAL'S SPEECH.
Subtopic:   ADDRESS IN REPLY.
Permalink
LIB

William Pugsley

Liberal

Mr. PUGSLEY:

They are very worthy

people and make splendid cotton. There is no better cotton mill in Canada than the York and Cornwall Cotton Mill. Their whole buildings are well filled with their cotton manufacturing plant. Their people are well employed in making cotton and I do not think from the intelligence of the gentleman-take my hon. friend Senator Thorne, one of the directors of the York and Cornwall Cotton Company, a most worthy gentleman, a gentleman of the very highest intelligence, who would not for a single moment mistake a shrapnel shell or an 18-pound explosive for a ball of cotton.

Well, all over this country investigation will disclose that fact. But, more than that, it will disclose the fact that there were scores of plants throughout Canada capable of turning out shells which were not employed and which to-day are standing idle. It will disclose the fact, which 1 know, that in some cases manufacturers of wooden goods were demanding orders for making shell boxes, gentlemen who had all the machinery, all the plant for the purpose, but they were told at Ottawa, by General Bertram, Chairman of the Shell Committee: Nothing doing, orders all

filled. And yet these orders had been given to middlemen who had no plants, machinery, or buildings, but who were simply getting orders in order to farm them out to others. The investigation will show more than that. I am only glossing over these matters at present, only speaking of some of those to which my attention has been particularly called, but it will show that one manufacturer in Ontario, who had an excellent plant, whose factory was examined by the inspector for the Shell Com mittee, and who was told he would get an order for shells, who went to an expense of $15,000 in getting additional lathes, when the day came and he was expecting the order, was waited upon by two gentlemen, one of them very closely connected with the Chairman of the Shell Committee, and was informed that he could not get the

order unless he paid a commission of one and one-half per cent upon the cost. And there have been brought to my attention the cases of three other manufacturing concerns which were in exactly the same position.

Topic:   THE GOVERNOR GENERAL'S SPEECH.
Subtopic:   ADDRESS IN REPLY.
Permalink
CON

John Stanfield (Chief Government Whip; Whip of the Conservative Party (1867-1942))

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. STANFIELD:

To whom was this

commission to be paid?

Topic:   THE GOVERNOR GENERAL'S SPEECH.
Subtopic:   ADDRESS IN REPLY.
Permalink
LIB

William Pugsley

Liberal

Mr. PUGSLEY:

To be paid to these

gentlemen who called for it.

Topic:   THE GOVERNOR GENERAL'S SPEECH.
Subtopic:   ADDRESS IN REPLY.
Permalink
CON

John Stanfield (Chief Government Whip; Whip of the Conservative Party (1867-1942))

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. STANFIELD:

I thought you meant

to the Shell Committee.

Topic:   THE GOVERNOR GENERAL'S SPEECH.
Subtopic:   ADDRESS IN REPLY.
Permalink
LIB

William Pugsley

Liberal

Mr. PUGSLEY:

Oh, no. I said a commission of one and a half per cent on the contract price. I do not pretend for a single moment that any of this was to go to the Shell Committee. I do not pretend for a single moment to say that anything was given to any one associated in any way with the Government, or with this House; I make no pretence to say that, but what I do say is that it was a most improper thing; that it was an act which ought to meet with the most^ severe condemnation of 10 p.m. this Parliament and of the courts of this country.

Topic:   THE GOVERNOR GENERAL'S SPEECH.
Subtopic:   ADDRESS IN REPLY.
Permalink
LIB

Charles Murphy

Liberal

Mr. MURPHY:

Did the man not get

the contract?

Topic:   THE GOVERNOR GENERAL'S SPEECH.
Subtopic:   ADDRESS IN REPLY.
Permalink
LIB

William Pugsley

Liberal

Mr. PUGSLEY:

The man declined to pay 1J per cent, and he did not get the contract. 'Now, whether my hon. friend from Colchester (Mr. Stanfield) would draw any inference from that fact in favour of the Shell Committee or not, I do not know. The two things synchronized, as my hon. friend the Minister of Finance would say. These two gentlemen approached the manufacturer who had already, as I have said, installed $15,000 worth of plant, and they demanded 1J per cent on the contract as a condition of his getting it.

Topic:   THE GOVERNOR GENERAL'S SPEECH.
Subtopic:   ADDRESS IN REPLY.
Permalink
CON

John Douglas Hazen (Minister of Marine and Fisheries; Minister of the Naval Service)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. HAZEN:

Who are they?

Topic:   THE GOVERNOR GENERAL'S SPEECH.
Subtopic:   ADDRESS IN REPLY.
Permalink
LIB

William Pugsley

Liberal

Mr. PUGSLEY:

My hon. friend will heai of them when the commission is appointed.

Topic:   THE GOVERNOR GENERAL'S SPEECH.
Subtopic:   ADDRESS IN REPLY.
Permalink
CON

Arthur Meighen (Solicitor General of Canada)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. MEIGHEN:

It will be like the submarine inquiry.

Topic:   THE GOVERNOR GENERAL'S SPEECH.
Subtopic:   ADDRESS IN REPLY.
Permalink
LIB

William Pugsley

Liberal

Mr. PUGSLEY:

Does my hon. frie:ad want me to go into that? Let me tell him that he should hesitate before mentioning the submarine commission because, Sir, the investigation-the most shallow investigation-at which the Government refused to allow counsel to appear on behalf of the people of Canada, the examination, shallow as it was-

Topic:   THE GOVERNOR GENERAL'S SPEECH.
Subtopic:   ADDRESS IN REPLY.
Permalink
CON

Arthur Meighen (Solicitor General of Canada)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. MEIGHEN:

Does my hon. friend

say-

Topic:   THE GOVERNOR GENERAL'S SPEECH.
Subtopic:   ADDRESS IN REPLY.
Permalink

January 18, 1916