March 27, 1915


The House in Committee of Supply, Mr. Sevigny in the Chair. Department of Secretary of State-Salaries, $75,300.


LIB
CON

Louis Coderre (Minister of Mines; Secretary of State of Canada)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Hon. LOUIS CODERRE (Secretary of State):

The increase from $71,725 to $75,300 is made up of statutory increases and a net addition of three members to the staff. In the first division, subdivision B,

there is one additional, at $2,100. This is for a clerkship in the new Naturalization Branch. There is one dropped in the second division, subdivision B, and two in the third division, subdivision A, and there are five additional in the third division, subdivision B.

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CON

Louis Joseph Papineau (Whip of the Liberal Party)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. PAPINEAU:

The figures given by

the Secretary of State relate to the inside service. I have a statement here of increases in the inside service, showing a net increase of over 29 per cent since the present Government came into power. These figures I believe to be correct, and they show that whereas in 1911 there were 3,195 employees in the inside service, this year there will be 4,177, an increase of 982. The increases are in all departments of Government excepting the Printing Bureau. The figures I have are as follows:

Inside Service.

Number of employees in the different departments at Ottawa, inside service in the year 1911, and under the present Government in 1915, as shown in the estimates for the years 1911-1912 and 1915-1916, respectively.

1911. 1915

Privy Council Office 20 26Administration of Justice 54 69Department of Militia and Defence. 102 137" Secretary of State. 36 52" Printing and Sta- tionery 70 46Department of the Interior .. . . 747 897Indian Affairs . . 77 86Royal Northwest Mounted Police. 11 11Office of the Auditor General. . . . 83 94Department of Finance and Trea- sury Board 92 99Department of Customs . . . 198 245Inland Revenue . 71 93Agriculture .. .. 287 335Marline and Fisheries 152 143Department of Naval Service.. 65 125Railways & Canals 27 110Public Works. . . 271 396Mines 128 212Post Office Department 510 763Department of Trade and Com- inerce 44 84Department of Labour 27 39General Consulting Engineer to Dominion Government 2 2Department of Insurance . . . 16 20" External Affairs..

Office of the Conservation com

mission

Civil Service Commission.. . .

Department of Public Archives

_ Total 3,195 4,177

Increase under present Government, 982.

13

This accounts for the increase of $178,286.60 a year in the Estimates for the inside service. WTe can understand perfectly well that there are many more employees under the Government when we find that thirty-six additional buildings have been rented

since this Government came into power, and that they pay in rents no less than $178,000 a year more than their predecessors did. This is according to the figures furnished by the Minister of Public Works on the 15th and 22nd February last.

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LIB

Charles Marcil

Liberal

Mr. MARCIL:

What is the total amount of the . rents paid by the Government in the city of Ottawa?

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CON

Louis Joseph Papineau (Whip of the Liberal Party)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. PAPINEAU:

The additional buildings rented by this Government represent an aggregate annual rental of $202,148.60; the leases expired represented rentals of a total of $23,880; leaving a balance, the net increase, of $178,268.60.

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LIB
CON
LIB
CON

Louis Joseph Papineau (Whip of the Liberal Party)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. PAPINEAU:

No; this is the increase in the total number of employees. The increase in connection with the cost of caring for the departmental buildings, which was $63,000 in 1911, is now $175,000. The Minister of Finance told us the other day, when this question of increase of civil servants was discussed, in an attempt to justify this increase, that in 1913 he had the greatest surplus in the history of this country. I understand that this year we will have the largest deficit that we have had, and according to the statement made by the Minister of Finance in his Budget speech, next year we may expect a larger one. The increase in the expenditure, according to the figures given by the hon. junior member for Halifax in his speech on the Budget, is over $6,000 a day for salaries alone. Under these circumstances, I think that if it is not possible to decrease the number of civil servants who are employed in the inside service in Ottawa, this is certainly not the time to increase it. I think that if my hon. friend's department finds it necessary to add to its staff, it should' obtain the necessary employees from other departments where their services may not be required.

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LIB
CON

Louis Coderre (Minister of Mines; Secretary of State of Canada)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. CODERRE:

There were 49 last year; next year there will be 52. This increase of three is because of our establishing the new naturalization branch which was provided for by the legislation passed la-1, year.

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LIB
CON
LIB

William F. Carroll

Liberal

Mr. CARROLL:

The minister has not given any explanation of the enormous increase in the number of the employees in the inside service, and the consequent enormous outlay of money.

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CON

Louis Coderre (Minister of Mines; Secretary of State of Canada)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. CODERRE:

I do not think

that I should be expected to give an explanation with respect to the increase in the other departments. The increase in the Department of the Secretary of State has not, I believe, been very large. We have had but few increases during the last three years. One of the reasons for the increase is that we have had to cope with a very large number of charters of incorporated companies; I am told that the number is much larger than it was during the preceding year. I am informed also by the officers of the department that the number of returns which it-has been necessary to prepare has exceeded that of previous years, and we have consequently had to add a few employees to the staff. Of course, in some of the other departments coming under the administration of the Secretary of State, increases have taken place; I can give the reasons for these increases when the Estimates for the departments concerned are brought before the committee.

Department of the Secretary of State-contingencies, $16,000.

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LIB
CON

Louis Coderre (Minister of Mines; Secretary of State of Canada)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. OODERRE:

This increase is rendered necessary by a general increase in the ordinary work of the department.

Mr. PUG8LEY: It'does seem to me that the hon. Secretary of State is not giving a fair and satisfactory reason for the increase for the coming year. These are times of declining revenue, and certainly at this period the minister should endeavour to reduce rather than increase the expenditure. As one hon. gentleman has said, there must he a large number of employees in other department? whose services are not required, and they could very well be transferred to the Department of the Secretary of State if additional help is required in that department. It cannot be true that with the collection of $30,000,000 or $40,000,000 lev-

than has been collected during the past two years, the same number of employees are required in the Customs Department. When we complain of the increased expenditure in these departments, and suggest that there should be a reduction, the answer is given that it would not be fair to the civil servants to dispense with their services. But why should they not be transferred? The work is largely clerical; in many cases it is the work of stenographers or clerks. If the Secretary of State wants additional help, why does he not go to the Minister of Customs and say: I want two or three clerks transferred to my department during the coming year; you do not require them, because you are collecting $30,000,000 or $40,000,000 less revenue than you collected in previous years. Is there any reason why that should not be done?

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CON

Louis Coderre (Minister of Mines; Secretary of State of Canada)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. CODERRE:

Even if they were transferred, I would have to pay them out of my own vote.

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March 27, 1915