profit out of this enterprise and that their sole profit will he that which may be derived out of the common stock, which is all they get in connection with the arrangement which is now being made by the Government.
The Government having made this audit and having ascertained this state of facts, it would be reasonable for them to consider the whole situation. In considering the whole situation, it was reasonable for them to look into the matter and see who the applicants were and what right they had to come to the people of Canada for assistance. My hon. friend says that these gentlemen are the prize mendicants of this country. I did not know that it was mendicancy to ask a loan from a bank when you put up security and pay for it by common stock. It is to my mind a most ordinary business transaction. Instead of going to a banker it was very natural to go to the Government because no one is more vitally interested in the success of the road than the Government is and if it was a good financial proposition for a banker it certainly was much more so for the Government. It was much more so in the interests of the people of the country because the aid which the Government could give to this enterprise could obviously be obtained at a cheaper rate than if it were obtained from a private banker. The Government, while aiding the road were also aiding the people of the country, and it was much better that they should grant this aid than that Mackenzie and Mann should go to the bankers and allow them to distribute this common stock because if any common stock was going it was desirable that the people should get it.
The Government having ascertained the position of this matter, and having met the applicants, it is only fair, it is only just to these men to show what they had put into this enterprise which entitles them to the consideration of this country. These men gained their first experience in construction work on the Canadian Pacific railway in the Canadian West. I do not think there is a man within sound of my voice who does not believe that they know more about railway construction than any other people in this country to-day. I do not think there is a man who is informed upon these matters who believe that there is any set of men in Canada to-day with the same amount of skill and ability in the construction of railways, cheaply, safely and economically as the two men who control the interests of the Canadian Northern railway. Having got their experience in the Canadian West they
began to build railways for themselves practically only from 1896. I want you all to bear in mind that in 1896 only 21,000 immigrants came into this country. I want you to bear in mind that that great, powerful system, the Canadian Pacific railway, would not build one branch line of railway, would not put up one dollar for branch lines. Why? Because they did not have the faith in Canada's future that these two men had. They are entitled to consideration because they had faith, in Canada and they realized that the construction of the branch lines in the Northwest was necessary in order that that country might be settled and that Canada might become one of the greatest countries of the world. How do I know that? There were, in 1896, three charters kicking around Manitoba, that had been kicking around there for these many years, and nobody would touch them, land grant or anything else. The Canadian Pacific railway would not touch them at all. Obviously it was thought that there was no necessity for them to do so because they no doubt argued that if anybody was willing to be a big enough fool to build a branch line the traffic would come to the main line and they would get the branch lines in the end at their own price. And they would have got them but for the genius of these two men, who succeeded in connecting up Port Arthur and Winnipeg. They built a line there, so that, when the Manitoba Government had an opportunity to buy the Northern Pacific, there were only two men outside of the Canadian Pacific Railway Company who were able to handle the matter and to carry grain to the Great Lakes, thus giving the West the one thing for which its people had asked for years, namely, railway competition. It is idle to say that the Manitoba Government did it. I am willing to give my hon. friend the Minister of Public Works all the credit that is so justly due to him; but it takes two men to make a bargain; and it is due to the fact that Mackenzie and Mann put their energy and capital into that railway enterprise that there was a railway from Winnipeg to Port Arthur able to deal with the Manitoba government independently of the Canadian Pacific. There was no one else who could have leased the Northern Pacific Manitoba railway, and in that way given railway competition to the Canadian West except the Canadian Northern. That is the first thing that occurred.
In connection with the construction in 1896 of these roads that nobody else would
have anything to do with, Mackenzie and Mann got 4,100,000 acres of land. Apparently they took 100,000 acres of that land for themselves, and turned in the other 4,000,000 acres for the benefit of the Canadian Northern railway. My hon. friend from Calgary (Mr. Bennett) says that some of these lands were later on exchanged, and that the newr grant was made to the Canadian .Northern railway and not to Mackenzie and Mann or these other companies that originally earned the land grant, as if that were of any consequence. The only reason that was so was because these earlier roads had been amalgamated with the Canadian Northern railway, and the Canadian Northern railway had absorbed the lands granted to these railways and was therefore at that time the company entitled to receive those exchange lands. There is no particular mystery in regard to the fact that other land than the particular land that they got was given to them. A portion of the land originally granted was found to be unfit for settlement; and where it was not fit for settlement, the Government were bound to give them land fit for settlement. The Canadian Pacific railway got land fit for settlement in exchange for lands originally granted which were unfit, and it was perfectly fair and proper to give the Canadian Northern railway lands fit for settlement, seeing that the grant called for that class of land. So much for that *situation.
I want it to be borne in mind that 1 accept the statement of the Prime Minister, who has investigated this matter through the accountants, as to the value of that land which these gentlemen were entitled to put into their pockets; in the same way as other gentlemen in the Canadian West put into their pockets land grants in connection with the construction of railway lines in that country, as is well known to every one here. Mackenzie and Mann had precisely the same right to retain these land grants for their own use and profit but they turned the lands over to the Canadian Northern. Wheii the Prime Minister says that that land is of the value of $30,000,000, I accept his statement, and I will deal with it later on. It is of importance in regard to what the people of Canada must do, because they must deal fairly with these gentlemen, just as they must deal fairly with themselves. We are too great a people not to rise to an occasion of this kind, and deal well and fairly with those who have dealt well and fairly with us.
* I will now leave these land grants for the moment and come to the question of freight rates and freight competition and the benefit the people of Canada have already derived in this regard by the work of Mackenzie and Mann. I have here Chapter 39 of the Statutes of 1901 of Manitoba; and section 8, subsections (a) and (b) read as follows:
(a) Reductions amounting to more than four cents per hundred pounds on the tariff rates in force on the date of said indenture for the carriage of grain from Manitoba to a lake Superior port and,
(b) Reductions amounting together to more than fifteen per cent on the tariff rates in force on the said date for the carriage of all other freight from and to points in Manitoba, and from and to points in Manitoba to and from Fort William and Port Arthur.
I also call attention to section 10 of the schedule to this statute, which says:
Commencing when this agreement takes effect, the company shall reduce its passenger rates in Manitoba to not exceeding three cents per passenger per mile.
I may say for the information of some hon. gentlemen that the former rate was four cents, so that the reduction has been 25 per cent, an enormous reduction.
I am now going to read some testimony as to the benefits the people of the West and of Canada generally have received from this undertaking, from a paper of which some of us have certainly heard. I refer to the Globe, published in Toronto.