May 5, 1914


imputed motives to the Minister of Railways in the late Administration in connection with the taking over of the Canada Eastern Railway. The minister seemed to dwell upon the fact that that railway was owned at the time by one Mr. Gibson, whose son was then a member of this House, supporting the Liberal Administration. I cannot allow that assertion to pass without refutation. The real desire was not to favour Mr. Gibson or his son or any member of that company; the time had come when that railway would be taken over by the Canadian Pacific Railway Company if it had not been acquired by the Government of the day. It would have been the greatest misfortune for the people of the Maritime provinces had the Government of the day allowed that railway to go into the hands of the Canadian Pacific railway, because it carries a great deal of the trade of the counties of Northumberland and Kent, being particularly valuable for the transportation of fish from points in Gloucester and Kent counties. The hon. gentleman says that because of the action of the Senate the branch lines policy was not put in operation last year. Although we on this side of the House agreed with the members of the Government to accept the Bill as presented by the minister at that time, the Senate were not prevented from looking into the constitutional aspect of the matter. The Senate cannot be accused of partisanship in that regard. We on this side of the House agreed as to the desirability of the taking over of the branch lin£s by the Government, to be operated as part of the Intercolonial railway, but the Senate thought that it was not in accordance with the principle of the constitution to give the minister power to acquire and build branch lines without the . authority of Parliament. The people of this country to-day understand the duties of both branches of Parliament. The people understand that the Senate as well as this branch of the legislature should perform their duty to the people of Canada and that they were justified in introducing that amendment, which merely provided that the minister should obtain the authority of Parliament before purchasing or building branch lines. When that Bill came back to the House the Government refused to accept this amendment made by the Senate, although hon. gentlemen on this side were willing to accept it. It has been said that the ex-MinisteT of Public Works (Mr. Pugsley) suggested that fMr. Turgeon.] a conference should be held between this House and the Senate and, therefore, if my right hon. friend and the members supporting him really had had at heart the acquisition of these branch lines-, in the Maritime provinces more particularly, they could have -either accepted -the amendment or had a conference with the Senate and I for one feel that, in the exercise of my duty, I have to cast the bl-ame upon the Administration of to-day for having failed to acquire some of these branch lines. I am more particularly interested in this because in my county there is one of the longest and most productive branches along the Intercolonial railway, extending from Bathurst to Shippegan, sixty-five miles and from Inkerman to Tra-cadie, twelve or fifteen miles, and the people have been waiting for relief. We in that county are now subject to a double tariff; since the Intercolonial under its new management raised "the freight rates the Cara-quet company have also increased their tariff and therefore our people have to pay much more than they used to. There is another branch to which I wish to call the -attention of the Prime Minister and more particularly of the Minister of Marine, that is -th-e extension of the Bathurst line -to the harbour of Bat-hurst. This question was mentioned some time ago. The Minister of Marine has given his support, when Premier of New Brunswick to the construction of this road. I referred to the line from Bathurst Mines to Nepisiguit Junction, four miles. The mine will certainly continue to be operated because it is inexhaustible and, much as I regret the cessation of business by -the Canada Iron company, I am in a position to say that arrangements have been made with the receiver by another company bo operate-the mines and therefore shipments will continue from the mines to Nepisiguit Junction and to Newcastle for some time. This line should -be taken over and operated by the Government. The traffic for that line is not confined merely to the shipment of iron ore. The town of Bathurst is well known to the Minister of Marine. He has encouraged the railway by giving a guarantee of about $15,000 when he was Premier of the province. I have done everything I could in behalf of that enterprise and urged it upon the former Minister of Railways and Canals -and -the former Administration had pr-actieally decided to build the railway and operate it themselves when the Canada Iron company suggested tha-t they would pref er to build it and operate it for their own business.' There is now a considerable lumber industry there which would provide additional traffic. The minister is aware that a pulp and paper mill upon which $3,000,000 or $4,000,000 will be spent is under erection at Bathurst and it will continue to give trade on that line from the harbour of Bathurst to Bathurst Mines. The Government should build the rest of that line from Nepisiguit Junction to the harbour, four miles, which would make a saving of over thirty-seven miles in the transportation of the ore. I do not think it would be necessary for the Government to put an item in the Estimates for this season for the construction of that line, because the harbour improvements which I hope will be completed early next spring are not yet ready. I would hope that a survey be made of the balance of that railway out from Nepisiguit Junction to the Harbour, four miles, and meanwhile the department might communicate with the receiver or the proper authorities of the Canada Iron company. They have had a double subsidy, one from this Government and one from the Federal Government. The road bed is a first class construction. I ask the Prime Minister to take this matter into his consideration and I hope before long he will have his engineers make this survey. I shall vote for the amendment brought in by the hon. member for Westmorland.


CON

Herménégilde Boulay

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. H. BOULAY (Rimouski):

Mr. Speaker, it was my intention to address the House at some length in regard to the question brought forward by the hon. gentleman from Westmorland (Mr. Emmerson); but in view of the lateness of the hour, I shall be content with a few remarks suggested by c-ertain statements which hon. gentlemen opposite have ventured to make.

They endeavoured to show, among other things, that the Bill passed by the House last year, making provision for the taking over of the branch railways by the Intercolonial, had not been effectually sidetracked through the action of the Senate, where their party is in the majority. The truth of the matter is that in this House that Bill was unanimously carried; tooth parties having come to an agreement in regard to the matter, the taking over of these branch lines was decided without a dissentient voice. It was the general opinion that such taking over was of absolute necessity in the interest of the Intercolonial, as well as of the province of Quebec and of the Maritime provinces. The matter was so well understood, that not a dissentient voice was heard condemning the proposal.

209*

To my mind, that would be an additional reason for the Senate to pass the Bill without changing a word, since no differences of opinion had been voiced in the House of Commons in connection with the proposal. It seems to me that in respect to such an important Bill, when there was unanimity of feeling, the Senate should not have taken the liberty of mutilating the Bill as forwarded from the House of Commons, in such a way as to render it useless. The Senate might have been justified in taking such a stand in respect to a measure which had been the occasion of much wrangling in this Chamber. But that was not the case as regards that Bill; and1 the Senate amended it to such an extent that the Government was no longer in a position to make use of it, and as a consequence the branch lines were not taken over.

It was even stated that the hon. Minister [DOT] of Railways was opposed to the policy of acquiring those branch lines, and that this was probably the reason why the Senate amendment was not accepted. Now the facts point in the opposite direction. I>t was the hon. Minister of Railways (Mr. Cochrane) himself who introduced the Bill, who put it through the House, and that hon. gentleman is too much of a business man not to have perceived at once that this was a vital issue and of the greatest -moment for the future of the Intercolonial. There is, for instance, the International railway whose earnings cover ten times over its expenditure; the Caraquet railway which shows a handsome margin of profits; also the Chaleurs Bay railway and the Canadian-Gulf railway, which runs from Ste. Flavie to Matane, and shows receipts double its expenditure. So it will be seen that the Minister of Railways had no reason whatever to object to the taking over of these branch lines.

Exception has also been taken to the doing away with the train service known as the Ocean Limited, between Halifax and Montreal. On that point I agree with those hon. gentlemen, and I say that the said train should have been left on. If it was necessary to cut off some of the trains, it would have been preferable to do away with train services 33 and 34, so-called. There is not the least doubt that during some winter months, such as February and March, two passenger trains are more than is required. Undoubtedly the Ocean Limited is by far the most convenient for those who travel between Halifax and Montreal, and the people of the province of Quebec, especially as it runs by night. If I had any

suggestion to offer to the hon. Minister of "Railways, it would be to out out those two trains 33 and 34, and leave on the Ocean Limited.

Exception was also taken to the management of the Intercolonial. As to the condition of the railway proper, I am bound to say that, as stated by the hon. Prime Minister this evening, it is in as good condition us it was two or three years ago, that is under the management of hon. gentlemen opposite. But the criticism I have to offer, and the grievance which is complained of in my district, at any rate, is that the engines used in the Matapedia valley are rather too heavy and bulky for the curves to be met with along that part of the road. Whoever is acquainted with the valley of the Matapedia between Camptbellton and Ste. Flavie, realizes that those engines are ' too heavy and that it would be advisable to use lighter engines, as on some occasions those heavy engines have caused the trains to run off the tracks and inflicted losses on the Intercolonial railway. But all that does not affect the condition of the road, and it is as good as it was under the Liberal rule.

I noticed that the hon. member for Pictou charged the Government with being too lax in its repression of the use of liquor. It was stated that 'both an engineer and a . conductor in Nova Scotia had been kept on the service after some rather damaging evidence had been adduced against them. Well, I do not know whether the Intercolonial has two weights and two measures, hut I doubt very much the correctness of the charge, as, in my county, I know of two men who were dismissed for taking a single glass of liquor. I should add that under the circumstances I found the measure rather drastic, and it surprises me that such laxness should have been shown in Nova Scotia, as contended by the hon. member for Piotou. I do not understand why so much harshness should have been shown in the province of Quebec in dealing with two men who acknowledged taking some liquor. The circumstances are well worth stating. At Campbellton, for some time past, the disappearances of large quantities of liquor had been noticed on the Intercolonial, and steps were being taken with a view to finding out those who were guilty of these pilf-erings. A Moncton detective approached these two men, who were working on some engines, with a view to obtaining some information from them, and, to attain his object, he promised them on behalf of the officials that, should they give out information in their possession concerning these

liquor thefts, no action would be taken against them. The promise was made to them that they would be exempt from all punishment, and under such circumstances, as is well known, in any court of justice, the King's evidence goes scot free. Besides, those people not being under oath, were not obliged to state the truth. They admitted, in answer to the detective's questions, that they had taken a glass of liquor, and immediately they were dismissed by the Intercolonial management, in spite of the promise of immunity which had been made to them.

All that leads me to think that the charge (preferred by the hon. member for Pictou is without foundation, unless the Intercolonial has two weights and two measures.

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LIB

Charles Arthur Gauvreau

Liberal

Mr. GAUVREAU:

Is the hon. member

in a position to say where they had secured those two glasses of liquor?

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CON

Herménégilde Boulay

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BOULAY:

They had got the liquor from another man in the employ of the Intercolonial. That was the whole of the evidence adduced at the time. However, that was enough to put the detective on the track of part of the stolen liquor. What I find to blame under the circumstances, is the dismissal of those two men, after they had been promised exemption on behalf of the management of the Intercolonial railway.

Mr. W. F. CARROLL (South Cape Breton)-Mr. Speaker, at this late-hour, and as the question has been fully discussed I do not intend to take up much of the time of the House in a further discussion of the state of affairs on the Intercolonial. There are, however, a few observations which I wish to make. I do not intend to go into the question of the acquisition of branch lines for the Intercolonial, or into the question of building new lines as feeders for that railway, which, incidentally, would open up new country in the Maritime provinces. My views on that question are well known to the House, and particularly as regards the taking over of the St. Peter's road by the Intercolonial, and its extension to -Louisburg, thence to the mining distrcts of Cape Breton county and on to Sydney, opening up new country and giving to the mining people of Cape Breton county a chance to get lower freight and passenger rates than they at present enjoy under the system of railways which we have in that part of the country. I wish also to say a few words on the question of the management of the Intercolonial promoting men fsom the ranks of that rail-

illS

way to its high positions. I also wish to say a word or- two as to the advisability of this or any other Government buying coal for fuel on the Intercolonial from the United States or any other country but Canada, in view of the fact that we have as good a supply of coal for that purpose in the eastern part of this country as can be obtained anywhere in the world. I shall also say a few words as to the introduction of standard rules on the eastern section of the Intercolonial.

With reference to the promotion of men from the ranks of the Intercolonial to the higher positions on that road, I wish to say that neither this Government nor any other Government in this country has given that question the serious consideration which it demands. If I had time, I could show that men who have grown up in the service of the Intercolonial have obtained positions of the very highest character in railways across the line, and in the Canadian Pacific railway, and Grand Trunk in this country. The Premier has [DOT] told us that it is the policy of this Government to promote men from the ranks to fill the high official positions on the Intercolonial.0 I am sorry to tell my right hon. friend, and this House, that the Government is not putting that policy into effect. On the 26th of February last, I asked the following question:

1. What are the names of the new appointees of the head office staff of the Intercolonial railway, since September 21, 1911?

2. Who were their predecessors?

3. What is the salary of the individual new appointees, and what is the salary of their predecessors respectively?

4. On what railways did the new appointees see service, and what were their respective salaries there?

The answer was that nine changes had been made in the head office staff at Moncton, and the House will be surprised when I tell them that not one of those nine were taken from the ranks of the Intercolonial. Mr. F. P. Gutelius, previous to his appointment, was employed by the Investigating Commission of the Transcontinental railway, and previous to that by the Canadian Pacific railway; C. A. Hayes, who took the place of E. Tiffin, and who previously had a salary of $700 a month, came from the Grand Trunk railway and was promoted to the office at Moncton at a salary of $833.33 a month. H. F. Alward, who had previously received a salary of $3,200 a year, was promoted from another railway and given a position on the Intercolonial at a salary of $333.33 per month;

C. B. Brown, who came from the Canadian Pacific railway to succeed W. B. Mackenzie, and who had previously received a salary of $4,500 a year, was appointed at $500 a month; W. A. Duff came from the Transcontinental railway to take the place of A. E. Killam. He had previously been getting a salary of $250, and receives the same from the Intercolonial; R. G. Gage was appointed at a salary of $200 a month to take the place of E. A. Rolfe. He came from the General Railway. Signal Company of Canada. W. R. Devenish came from the Transcontinental Investigating Commission and receives $200 a month; G. E. Smart came from the Canadian Pacific railway and assumes part of the duties of W. N. Appleton, W. E. Barnes and Mr. Sharp, at a salary of $300 a month. Robt. Klock is the only person of the whole nine who can be said to have had any experience with the Intercolonial. He came fiom the Department of Railways and Canals, and probably had very little experience with the Intercolonial. So while the Prime Minister tells us that it is the policy of the Government to fill these high positions on the Intercolonial with men who have grown up in that service, I want to . point out as evidence of their not putting that policy into effect the return which came down on the 26th of February last, and from which I have just been reading. I take the ground that there are men in the employ of the Intercolonial as well equipped to fill the places of responsibility on that road, either in connection with the head office * or any other department, as you can find anywhere on the continent of America; and there is no justification in the world for this Government or any other to go outside the Intercolonial to get excellent men to fill those high positions. I am not going further into that question, except to point out that all the chief offices of that railway which have been filled by this Government are occupied by men who had previous experience on other railways than the Intercolonial, and therefore this Government is not making effective the policy which was announced in the House to-night by the Prime Minister. I could go on and .point out further cases of men who have given their life's work to the Intercolonial-for a consideration, to be sure-good men, qualified in every respect, but who were overlooked in favour of men taken from other roads to fill places which they could well have filled.

In connection with the buying of coal

for the Intercolonial; I take the stand that *where it is at all possible to buy coal from the mines in the province of Nova Scotia, or in other parts of Canada, it is not good policy for this Government or any other government to go abroad to buy coal. The

15,000 tons of coal purchased by the general manager of the Intercolonial this year could have been obtained from the collieries of Nova Scotia. In the interview which Mr. Gutelius gave to the press of this country, he showed no justification whatever for going outside the province of Nova Scotia to buy this coal, especially in view of the fact that the 15,000 tons which he imported from the United States cost the Intercolonial about $1.25 a ton more than the Nova Scotia coal would have cost, and this at a time when the mines of Nova Scotia, especially the smaller ones, were working half time, and when some of their employees were absolutely in want. I want to point out another thing in connection with the buying of this coal. This Government has gone far away from the policy that any government in this country should have in asking fourteen or fifteen coal dealers in the United States to tender for the coal supplies of the Intercolonial. If these tenders had been awarded to the Nova Scotia collieries in December, January or February for the supply of coal for the following year the collieries of Nova Scotia would have been in a position to mine the coal which was demanded, because the collieries are not going to bank up their coal if they have no prospect of contracts in the near future. That gave vise to a lot of hardship and inconvenience to the coal miners of Nova Scotia during the past winter. If these contracts had been made it would have given a great deal more employment to the people who make their livelihood by digging coal and other work in oonne'ction with mining. The fact that Mr. Gutelius, bought 15,000 tons of American coal, though there were fifteen collieries in Nova Scotia, never even approached, to ascertain whether they could give the supply that was demanded by the Intercolonial railway was met by the statement that in 1901 coal was bought from the United States by the late Administration. I am not partisan enough not to condemn that act if there was no justification for it. But in 1901 there was a coal strike threatened in Nova Scotia and the managers of the collieries were not in a position to say whether they could give the Intercolonial railway a full supply of |Mr. Carroll.]

coal. Notwithstanding that fact there were only fifty thousand of sixty thousand tons of coal purchased. In 1907 there was no coal purchased from the United States but there was threatened strike then and there was an actual strike in the mines at Springhill which, unfortunately, became widespread in the year 1909. It was for that reason that the Deputy Minister of Railways and Canals at that time was 'seeking to ascertain what prices would be quoted for coal on the other side of the line. But notwithstanding the fact that there was a strike in the Nova Scotia collieries at that time no coal was bought outsile Canada. I take the ground that no tenders should be asked for the supply of coal for the Intercolonial railway from collieries outside of Canada. I take the ground that where it is at all possible to obtain

1 a.m. a supply of coal in Nova Scotia coal should not be imported for the Intercolonial railway.

In reference to the introduction of the standard rules on the Intercolonial railway, it is true that the Board of Railway Commissioners issued an order to the effect that the railways under its jurisdiction should bring into operation the standard railway rules. But that has no bearing whatever upon the management of the Intercolonial railway because the Board of Railway Commissioners has no jurisdiction and does not take jurisdiction over the Government railway. Therefore, the order of the board has nothing to do with the rules of the Intercolonial railway. Some days ago I put a question on the Order Paper to the acting Minister of Railways and Canals as to why these rules were introduced and what their introduction had cost. The answer of the minister is as follows:

Standard rules are all in force on part of the Intercolonial railway and many of them in force on the balance of the Intercolonial railway system.

He also stated that there were as many as fourteen tutors employed by the Government to bring the rules into effect on the Intercolonial and that it had cost the management $5,000, the payment of these tutors, to teach men the railway business who probably knew far more about railway operation than the tutors did. But the most wonderful paTt of the answer that I got from the acting minister was this. I askqd him why these rules were brought into effect and his answer was: To promote

safety on the Intercolonial railway. When the minister was making his statement in this debate to-night I asked him a question as to the loss of life and the

number of accidents on the Intercolonial railway as compared with other railways of this country. What was the answer he gave me? Notwithstanding the fact that about four days ago he gave as the reason for making these rules effective that it was to promote safety, he could not answer the question that I put to him because he knew nothing at all about it. Therefore, when he answered the question I put to him as to the reasons for putting these rules into effect he gave the answer he did because he did not have any statistics to show that the standard rules had promoted safety any more than the rules which we have had in force on the Intercolonial for many years. He also gave the answer to my question that these rules had been adopted to promote ' economy and despatch in the operation of the railway,' Complaints have come, to me from railway men operating between Truro and Sydney, which latter place happens to 'be in the constituency I represent, against the introduction and operation of these standard rules. There are very many old employees who have served twenty, thirty, or forty years on the Intercolonial railway, who have been in the service since the inception of the road, who have grown old in the service, and who do not readily understand how to grasp these rules and how to put them into force, they having been brought up from their childhood so to speak, to the rules which ihither-ta have ibeen in effect on the Intercolonial railway. The result is that many of these old employees are unable to make themselves sufficiently acquainted with the standard rules to put them into effect on their trains, and they will, in consequence, be forced to leave the employment of the Intercolonial railway. The acting Minister of Railways and Canals to-night gave force to their contention by saying that there were some of them who were not becoming efficient in the enforcement of these rules. What is he going to do with them? He could bring in men from the Canadian Pacific railway and the Grand Trunk railway who know these rules and who understand how to use them. He would place them in the positions which have been occupied by imen who have grown up in the service of the Intercolonial railway, conductors, etc., and he would place these old conductors perhaps in positions as switchmen, or something like that at very much reduced

salaries. I ask the acting Minister of Railways arid Canals if he thinks that is (a fair proposition to make. I ask him if, in view of the fact that the railway employees in that part of the country have sent him statistics to show that there have been less accidents on the Intercolonial in proportion to the number of passengers carried than on any other railway in Canada, it is necessary to introduce these standard Tules especially on the eastern section of the Intercolonial railway. What were the reasons which actuated the Board of Railway Commissioners in recommending the standard rules? The standard rules were recommended because in Toronto, Montreal and the larger cities of central Canada different railway companies were operating on same lines. In order to promote safety on such lines it was necessary to have uniform railway rules, but no such reason as that obtains in the eastern section of Nova Scotia, and no such reason obtains on any part of the Intercolonial with the exception of the line towards Montreal, and if I am correctly informed the standard rules have been in effect there for some time.

There are very many other matters in connection with the Intercolonial that I would like to discuss, but I will not delay the House at this late hour. The acting Minister of Railways need not come to this House and say that he is not receiving remonstrances from the railway men as well as from the patrons of the Intercolonial . railway in the eastern section of Nova Scotia. If he does not receive'such remonstrances he is the only member of the House who does not, because every member from Nova Scotia and from New Brunswick and from the eastern section of Quebec received day after day a list of grievances from the employees of the railway and from its patrons, which should be looked into by the Government. The acting minister told the hon. member for Westmorland that he brought this resolution to the attention of the House in order to make political capital out of it. Let me assure the hon. gentlemen that if the Liberal members of this House were only looking to make political capital out of the Intercolonial they would never have brought this to the attention of the House at all, because we have it on the responsibility of the editor of a newspaper in Nova Scotia, which is owned by the chief Conservative whip, that if the Government adhere to their present policy of operating the Intercolonial railway they will net have a Conservative candidate elected in any of the counties of Nova

331 n

Scotia through which the Intercolonial railway runs. If we were only looking for political effect, we would leave well enough alone and let the Government hang itself and defeat its own friends in Nova Scotia. But I think any hon. member of this House through whose county the Intercolonial runs would be remiss in his duty if he did not bring to the attention of the House and the country the grievances which exist which demand a speedy remedy. There has never been a time when the Intercolonial was more unpopular, botn with its patrons and employees, than it is to-day, and I trust that the Government will undertake to at once remedy the defects. I hope they will see to it that the Intercolonial is not run on the same basis as a company railroad, because it was never built with that intention. The Intercolonial railway was built as the people's road and has been operated as the people's road, and if ever there was a time when it ceased to be such, the people rose in their wrath and forced the Government of the day to a true understanding of their duties in respect to it. It is with that intention that mv hon. friend has moved the amendment which I cordially support.

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LIB

Henry Robert Emmerson

Liberal

Mr. EMMERSON:

I was paired with the hon. Minister of Finance. Had I voted I would have voted for the amendment.

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LIB

George Perry Graham

Liberal

Mr. GRAHAM:

I am paired with the hon. Minister of Railways. Had I voted I would have voted for the amendment.

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LIB

Henri Sévérin Béland

Liberal

Mr. BELAND:

I was paired with the hon. junior member for Ottawa. Had I voted I would have voted for the amendment.

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LIB

Edward Mortimer Macdonald

Liberal

Mr. MACDONALD:

I am paired with the hon. member for Cumberland. Had I voted I would have voted for the amendment.

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CON

George William Fowler

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. FOWLER:

I am paired with the hon. member for Sunbury and Queens. Had I voted I would have voted against the amendment.

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LIB

Frank Broadstreet Carvell

Liberal

Mr. CARVELL:

I am paired with the hon. member for York, N.B, Had I voted I would have voted for the amendment.

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LIB

William Erskine Knowles

Liberal

Mr. KNOWLES:

I am paired with the hon. member for Comox-Atlin. Had I voted I would have voted for the amendment,

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CON

Charles Joseph Doherty (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. DOHERTY:

I am paired with the hon. member for Bonaventure. Had I voted, I would have voted against the amendment.

Amendment negatived.

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SUPPLY.


The House in Committee of Supply, Mr. Blondin in the Chair.


CON

Robert Laird Borden (Prime Minister; Secretary of State for External Affairs; President of the Privy Council)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BORDEN:

The hour is too late to undertake any business, I move that the committee rise, report progress, and ask leave to sit again.

Progress reported.

On motion of Mr. Borden, the House adjourned at 1.32 a.m. Wednesday. -

Wednesday, May 6, 1914.

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May 5, 1914