May 4, 1914

CON

John Webster

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. WEBSTER:

You must consider the difference between re-working and re-churning. ,

Topic:   BUTTER SUBSTITUTES.
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LIB
CON

John Webster

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. WEBSTER:

My dear man, allow me to inform you that I can take you to a factory in Canada where they have been trying to do that for two years,

4 p.m. and in some cases they have succeeded so well that they have sold two hundred pounds of water at the price of butter.

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CON

Hugh Boulton Morphy

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. MORPHY:

Coming from a county

largely interested in dairying, I would urge that section 5 be extended to prohibit the sale of such butter. Probably, however, section 6 would sufficiently cover that.

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LIB

Frank Oliver

Liberal

Mr. OLIVER:

I would like to have a

definite statement as to whether these big dairy establishments in Edmonton are to be allowed to re-work butter in a legitimate way. I would read this section that they are not, but if the minister says it is the intention of the department to administer the law so as to permit the legitimate re-working of butter I would be satisfied with that; otherwise I would certainly have to protest against the section.

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CON

Martin Burrell (Minister of Agriculture)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BURRELL:

While I do not know

the circumstances of the firms to which my hon. friend refers, I do not think there will

be any attempt to stop the legitimate re-working of butter.

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LIB

William Erskine Knowles

Liberal

Mr. KNOWLES:

But might not some

private individual set in motion the machinery of the law? The enforcement of the federal law does not always come under federal authority. Things would be in a pretty mess if we would be safe in handing out reckless legislation on the country because we ourselves are so wise and prudent as not to take advantage of it. I think the minister's .suggestion does not answer the objection raised by the hon. member for Edmonton (Mt. Oliver).

Topic:   BUTTER SUBSTITUTES.
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?

John William Bell

Mr. BURE ELL:

I do not think my hon. friend need be alarmed about that. So far as I know, there has never been an attempt by any government to impose the slightest hardship in this regard, but it is very difficult to cover all cases in the dairying business without phraseology seeming to cover something that may be illegitimate. The Act will be interpreted by the officers of the department so as not to interfere with anybody carrying on a reasonably proper business.

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LIB

William Erskine Knowles

Liberal

Mr. KNOWLES:

Might there not be private prosecutions under this Act?

Mr. iBURRELL: It has never been done, so far as I know.

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LIB

William Erskine Knowles

Liberal

Mr. KNOWLES:

I do not think that is any answer. There might be private prosecutions, and if there were would it be any reply on the part of the accused to say that the Minister of Agriculture had said in the House of Commons that such and such was not the intention of the Act.

Topic:   BUTTER SUBSTITUTES.
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CON

Martin Burrell (Minister of Agriculture)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BURRELL:

This Bill has been

given the most deep .and careful consideration, and is believed to be in the interests of the country as well as the dairying industry. I think its provisions will have to stand as they are. If a man is doing *something deliberately illegitimate he would certainly have to take his chances.

Topic:   BUTTER SUBSTITUTES.
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LIB

William Erskine Knowles

Liberal

Mr. KNOWLES:

If the minister continues to take the stand .that he has taken up to the present and will not listen to argument, .saying that the Bill is wise legislation and will have to stand as it is, I, for one, wish to register my protest against passing legislation in that way. He might as well not bring it to the House at all.

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CON

Martin Burrell (Minister of Agriculture)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BURRELL:

The practice in this

House, o| course, has been to refer Bills to committees composed of members of both sides of the House, who thresh out

200 l

the details and report to the House. I have had a fairly long experience in the House, but I can only remember one instance-and that was a very extraordinary one-where the House did not accept the findings of the committee. I am not saying that the House is necessarily bound .to accept their findings, because we know it is not. In this case, a great many members from both .sides of the House gave this danse the most careful consideration in the committee and they passed it unanimously. I am only pointing that out to show that it has not been carelessly drawn up.

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LIB
CON

Adelbert Edward Hanna

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. HANNA:

If the hon. member has

any objection to this Bill why does he not state it?

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LIB
LIB

Levi Thomson

Liberal

Mr. LEVI THOMSON:

I think the hon. member has stated his objection; but I wish to refer to a point on which I think the hon. member for Brockville can put us right. I gather from what the hon. member said a little while ago that butter that has been re-worked would not be known as process or renovated butter. If the hon. member is sure about that there is no difficulty.

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CON
LIB

Frank Oliver

Liberal

Mr. OLIVER:

Subsection (a) of clause 3 says that no person shall sell or offer for sale butter that is not in a certain shape, but the last sentence says:

Nothing in this paragraph shall be held to apply to butter in rolls or lumps, of indiscriminate weight, as sold by farmers.

If the farmers sells to anybody but the consumer, the person who buys from him has in turn to sell again, and it seems to me that the section as drafted can scarcely convey the intent that its framers had. There must be some way of permitting the merchant to sell the rolled butter that he has bought from the farmer without reworking it the shape that the first part of the clause calls for.

Topic:   BUTTER SUBSTITUTES.
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CON

Martin Burrell (Minister of Agriculture)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BURRELL:

The first part of the

clause applies to creameries and other large establishments who make a practice of selling butter in certain shapes, but it is not meant to apply to the ordinary farmer who may go into a store and offer a lot of rolls weighing either half a pound, three-quarters of a pound, or a pound, which are sold by total weight. The clause is designed to give

to the public full weight from all the great butter-making establishments.

Topic:   BUTTER SUBSTITUTES.
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May 4, 1914