April 28, 1914

LIB

Frank Broadstreet Carvell

Liberal

Mr. CARVELL:

It is residency No. 11, Oromocto to Tipper Gagetown. I know that other portions of that road will cost -much more than $28,000 a 'mile; I know that many miles have not cost anything like that amount. I know that the whole road from Woodstock north will not cost -more than $28,000 a -mile when finished. I knorw that the company has received $28,000 a mile from this Government and from the Legislature of New Brunswick in actual cash. I know that they owe the contractors $50,000 on that part of the road, and that it will take $50,000 more to finish it. I know that $100,000 is still unpaid on that twenty-six miles. I know that the Legislature of New Brunswick gave them money to pay that $100,000, which these people put in their pockets ox paid out for political purposes, or -for something just as bad. I know that certain sections of the road from Woodstock to Fredericton-my hon. friend from York, N.B. (Mr. McLeod) knows a good deal more about this than I do-have "cost probably more than $28,000 a mile. I can tell my hon. friend just where the hard spots are as I made it my business to travel over that road a good many times last summer, and I know a little about a piece of work when I see it. I can tell my hon. friend that there are dozens of miles that did not cost as much as the road from Fredericton south. I am very anxious to see the figures and reports of the engineers as to what the road cost from Fredericton to Woodstock, and I can tell my hon. friend-and he can tell it to his friends in New Brunswick-that it is no use trying to pad the engineer's statements because practically all the road was sublet, and we have the Estimates given the sub-contractors. We know what the sub-contractors got paid for, so that if the Estimates are padded a certain company which my hon. friend would not like to see badly injured will have the pleasure of paying out a good deal of money.

Topic:   THE ST. JOHN VALLEY RAILWAY.
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CON

Harry Fulton McLeod

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. McLEOD:

What company is it that I do not want to see badly injured?

Topic:   THE ST. JOHN VALLEY RAILWAY.
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LIB
CON
LIB
CON

Harry Fulton McLeod

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. McLEOD:

You insinuated it; you had better talk straight.

Topic:   THE ST. JOHN VALLEY RAILWAY.
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LIB

Frank Broadstreet Carvell

Liberal

Mr. CARVELL:

If the shoe fits my hon. friend, I have no objection to his wearing it.

Topic:   THE ST. JOHN VALLEY RAILWAY.
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CON

Harry Fulton McLeod

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. McLEOD:

If you want to say it, say it; but do not insinuate it, be a real man.

Topic:   THE ST. JOHN VALLEY RAILWAY.
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LIB

Frank Broadstreet Carvell

Liberal

Mr. CARVELL:

I would be sorry to see my hon. friend and I disagree, because heretofore, we have been agreeing very well on railway matters in New Brunswick. It would be a pity to spoil the entente cordiale [DOT]existing between us.

Topic:   THE ST. JOHN VALLEY RAILWAY.
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CON
LIB

Frank Broadstreet Carvell

Liberal

Mr. CARVELL:

I have another railway matter to refer to, before Mr. Speaker, leaves the Chair, on which I am sure my hon. friend and I will agree.

Topic:   THE ST. JOHN VALLEY RAILWAY.
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CON
LIB

Frank Broadstreet Carvell

Liberal

Mr. CARVELL:

The Tobique and Campbell-ton. I am just giving my hon. friend warning. Do not let us quarrel over this, because we are going to agree on another matter.

I come now to the question of bridges. 1 told my hon. friend that in 1912 this Parliament voted a million dollars as a loan to the St. John and Quebec railway for the purpose of building three bridges, one was to cross the Kenebeeasis river near Perry's point, another was to cross the St. John river at a place called the Mistake, and the third was to cross the St. John river above Andover in order to tap the Transcontinental. It was believed at the time that there would be a sufficient sum saved out of the construction of the railway proper to apply $1,000,000 to the building of these three bridges, and I have not the faintest doubt in the world that if the money received in the way of subsidies and bond guarantees up to the present time had been honestly applied, that $1,000,000 could have been spent on those three bridges. But then, Sir, there would not have been any election fund, no rake-offs. To build those three bridges would have taken the whole of the million dollars, and possibly some of these shrewd Yankees might have been compelled to put up a dollar of their own money. I do not know that it is any hardship to ask them to put up a dollar, because remember they own the road when it is completed, every spike, every sleeper, and every 190i

acre of land on the right of way. Under the contract, the Intercolonial gets 60 cents out of every dollar of gross earnings for running the road-no matter what it costs to operate. They have to pay the other 40 cents to the Government of New Brunswick to pay the interest on the bonds; after that interest has been paid, whatever is left goes to this company of Yankees. So they own the road absolutely and why should they not be asked to put up a dollar of their own money when we treat them so magnificently as we are doing. They come back here and ask this Parliament to grant $3,000,000 instead of the $1,000,000, and while it is true that the hon. Minister of Trade and Commerce stated in reply to the hon. member for Westmorland (Mr. Emmerson) that the matter has not been decided, yet it is stated by the members of the legislature of New Brunswick.that the Government have agreed to give $3,000,000 to build these bridges. I have no hesitation in giving the name of the gentleman who said that. He is a son of that grand old mail of New Brunswick, Sir Leonard Tilley, and this steal was jammed through the legislature of New Brunswick on the pledge that this Government had agreed to grant $3,000,000. Those bridges should be built. This road will be a curse, not a blessing to the people of New Brunswick, unless they are built. The road will be a financial millstone around their necks, which will drag them into eternal ruin unless it goes to Grand Falls and St. John, and gets business from the Grand Trunk Pacific. Let not the Conservative newspapers to-morrow say that I have tried to prevent the building of these bridges. I say they must be built, not only the bridge across the St. John river, hut the bridge at Andover, because I look upon it as more important than the bridges down below. You could eliminate the bridges across the St. John river and strike the Canadian Pacific tracks at Westfield. You might make some arrangements for running rights that would not be very satisfactory, and get traffic into St. John, but you would not get it there at the right place; it would be at the west side instead of the east. But unless you cross at Andover and tap the Transcontinental you are out of it, and cannot do business of any kind. Therefore, this question of bridges goes to the very life of the province of New Brunswick. A bridge must be built at or near Andover in order to tap the Transcontinental. I want to ask the acting Minister of Railways, and to appeal to the Minister of Trade and Commerce, as a fair juryman, as to whether they

are willing, in view of what I have said about the manipulation of this company, and in view of the facts I have given as to what they are doing with this money-are they willing to hand over $3,000,000 to a gang of shrewd Yankees to take off to New York to build any kind of railroad and any kind of bridges they want? Is there any man in this House, Liberal or Conservative, -even the Minister of Marine and Fisheries -who would vote for such a proposition? I only want to say to the acting Minister of Eailways: give this assistance,but do it yourself; keep your hand on the purse strings; do not hand over a dollar to the Government of New Brunswick, or to the Yankee concern; build the bridges under the Department of Eailways and Canals. If the Hon. Frank Cochrane has the handling of it I believe it will be honestly done. It may be said that this breaks up the whole scheme. It does, to some extent, but it is necessary to break up schemes sometimes in order to protect the public weal

Let the Department of Eailways build these bridges and own them. Let the department allow the railway company to use them. It is true that they will be available for the Intercolonial railway later on, but charge up to the company something more than the sixty per cent of the gross earnings. Take a certain other percentage of the gross earnings to pay the interest upon these bridges, but do not, I pray you, hand over that $3,000,000 to this gang of Yankees to boodle with, and probably use one-third of it when the next elections come on in the province of New Brunswick. On this 117 miles already built there has been $3,200,000 or $3,300,000 expended and I have not the faintest doubt that a million dollars was absolutely squandered for the benefit of the Yankee manipulators and the Canadian manipulators as well. I have not any doubt in the world that at least $1,000,000 or $2,000,000 out of this vote will be absolutely squandered, and I have no doubt that if you vote $3,000,000 more for these bridges another million will be squandered by these people. While I never boil over with patriotism to any great extent, if there is any red blood in the veins of any Canadian, it will boil over at the thought of handing over $1,000,000 or $2,000,000 of the money of Canada to these Yankees to boodle with and to put away in their own pockets for their own purposes. I am almost ashamed to be a New Brunswieker when 1 consider the iniquitous story that is told, and is

being written in our papers everywhere, with regard to the transactions of the Conservative Government of New Brunswick in reference to the St. John and Quebec Eailway Company.

Perhaps I have been a little plain in my language, but no plainer than the necessities of the case demanded. I have tried to point out to the Minister of Eailways and Canals the condition of affairs. I have warned him as well as it was in my power and, if this scheme goes through and if this $3,000,000 is handed over to this company, he cannot say that I did not warn him and the people of New Brunswick, who will pay interest upon this money, cannot say that at least one representative of the people did not warn the powers that be of the existing state of affairs and pray them for God's sake to try and keep control of this money and not hand any more of it over to a gang of Yankee swindlers.

Before I take my seat, and before you leave the Chair, Mr. Speaker, there is another railway matter in New Brunswick that I want to refer to, because it seems that the good Lord only knows where the end of these railway schemes is going to be in that province unless something is done to prevent them here and now. About the first act of the hon. Minister of Marine and Fisheries, after he became leader of the Government in the province of New Brunswick, was to guarantee bonds for a road in that province. I do not know what it is called, but it is in the county of Gloucester and it is a road going into some iron mines in which Mr. Drummond was interested. Between $300,000 and $400,000 of public money has gone there-absolutely gone. The road closed down, the mines are closed and we are going to pay the interest upon that money.

The next scheme was the Southampton railway, which my hon. friend and I agreed upon very nicely not so very long ago. The sum of $155,000 went into that, upon which I do not believe one-tentn of the interest will be paid by the Canadian Pacific railway. This has been handed over to the Canadian Pacific, and they are to operate it and pay 40 per cent of the gross earnings to the province, which is to pay the interest upon the bonds. It is a railway spur running through a country not well populated and with no business anywhere beyond a lumber mill, which is owned by a man named Pinder, a particular friend of my hon. friend from York. The railway

cannot do sufficient business to pay the cost of operation, and I would be surprised if one-tenth of the interest on these bonds will be provided for out of the earnings. We have to pay the interest on this $155,000.

. If this scheme goes through, and I do not know how in the world we can stop it, we are responsible for the interest and you can figure it out for yourself. There will be 220 miles of road at $35,000 a mile and the total capital amount will be between $7,000,000 and $8,000,000. With the class of road that I have described to you, with its location, with the gang controlling it, I tell you, Sir, that the amount that we will have to pay will be simply enormous.

There is another railway scheme that I want to discuss here, because I want to exact a promise from my hon. friend the minister that he will not allow these people to make another big steal on this other railway deal. The minister would be surprised if he knew how close a call the people of New Brunswick had from a $150,000 steal being pulled off in connection with that enterprise. The Totbique and Campbellton railway extends from Plaster Rock up the Tobique Valley to a place called Riley Brook a distance of twenty-eight or thirty miles. Some years ago a few gentlemen, the leader of whom was ilr. John G. Stewart, got a charter from the New Brunswick Legislature to construct that road. They came here in 1910 and through the good offices of the hon. member for Victoria and Madawaska a Dominion subsidy was voted for the road. That subsidy was renewed in 1912. In the summer of 1913 the Department of Railways and Canals signed a subsidy contract with the railway, company of which Mr. Stewart was president, to construct the road. _ It was the ordinary subsidy contract calling for $3,200 a mile up to $15,000 a mile and then the ordinary graded scale beyond that amount. The company tried to get a guarantee of bonds from the provincial Government to an amount sufficient to build the road. They did not want very much; they would have been satisfied with $10,000 or $11,000 a mile. They were put off as the hon. member for York knows, and I have seen, within the last three weeks a letter written by the Premier of New Brunswick agreeing to guarantee these bonds to the extent of $15,000 a mile upon certain conditions.

Topic:   THE ST. JOHN VALLEY RAILWAY.
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CON

Harry Fulton McLeod

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. McLEOD:

That is what Mr. J. G. Stewart's Company asked for.

Topic:   THE ST. JOHN VALLEY RAILWAY.
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LIB
CON
LIB

Frank Broadstreet Carvell

Liberal

Mr. CARVELL:

Well, we will not quarrel about that little point. I have seen a letter written by the Premier of New Brunswick: agreeing to guarantee these bonds subject to certain conditions. To build this road will cost about $12,000 or $13,000 a mile. I have seen the plans and profiles. I have helped to figure them out and with my knowledge of the kind of railways that they build in New Brunswick, the Pinder road and some of these others, I am somewhat of an authority. I can tell you, Sir, that that road, according to the plans and profiles, can be built for from $12,000 to $14,000 per mile. Last year the charter expired. They went to the Legislature of New Brunswick and asked to have the subsidy renewed. They were opposed very viciously by certain interested parties but they succeeded in getting the charter renewed for one year. They had to commence operations before the 5th of April or their charter would lapse. They went to the Government and tried to get them to give them an agreement in the form of an Order in Council that they would guarantee these bonds in order that they could finance the undertaking and commence operations. But nothing was done except the imposition of conditions which it was practically impossible to carry out.

The annual meeting of the company was to be held in the month of January and when the company met a gentleman representing Mr. Flemming went to the company and suggested that it would be very wise indeed if they would postpone the annual meeting in order that they mightconfer with Mr. Flemming. It was represented that it would be very much to their advantage to do so. They then attempted to get control of the company by getting the stock away from Mr. Stewart. Mr. Stewart had put up $10,000 worth of this stock with Pinder's son-in-law in order to help the Southampton railway. But it was understood, so Mr. Stewart says, that it was to be used as collateral security for a loan which Pinder was to pay out of the proceeds of the bonds and which the holder of the note, or stock, says was not paid.

I leave that with them. Anyhow, they got that $10,000 away from Stewart; they would not have to get a very great amount outside of that to have control of the company. They got this matter put off until the 5th day of March, and in the meantime a member of the local legislature, rep-

*3010

resenting the county of Victoria, who was trying to prevent Stewart from getting a bond guarantee, was the means of having an execution, about fifteen years old, which was given to Stewart's brother as a matter of financing between them, issued in order to seize this stock. The execution was placed in the sheriff's hands and the stock was seized, and his brother was then somewhere in the West on railway construction, and the wires were set busy, and fortunately they were able to get hold of him, and before the sheriff could sell the stock he was sent instructions to quit, and told that Stewart never intended to press his brother on that claim. When the annual meeting was held on the 5th of March, the old company were in the position to elect their board of directors, and they elected two men from Grand Falls, who had not been on the board before, and started in to do business, and 1 am informed they did commence to work, and are now carrying on the work in order to hold their charter, although they have no bond guarantee from the local government.

So insistent were these people to get control of the charter, that when they could not get it by means of an old judgment, that never was intended to be acted upon, they then took the molasses method of getting it, and they sent a certain gentleman of the name of Edgar R. Teed-perhaps my friends opposite have heard of him-who lives in the town of Woodstock, to Grand Falls, and he pointed out to these directors that, being contractors, they could not be directors, and he thought they had better take a contract from the company to build the road and resign their positions as directors, and he would be willing to take their place on the board. If Mr. Teed got on the board of directors, then Flemming and his crowd would own the road; then they could have guaranteed the bonds for $15,000 a mile. They could have gone on and built it and played the same game they played with the Southampton road, and they could have pulled out at least $150,000, providing Mr. Johnson, the inspecting engineer, was not a little more particular than he was in the case of the Southampton road.

Topic:   THE ST. JOHN VALLEY RAILWAY.
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CON

John Dowsley Reid (Minister of Customs)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. J. D. REID:

He will not do any

more inspection.

Topic:   THE ST. JOHN VALLEY RAILWAY.
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LIB
CON

John Dowsley Reid (Minister of Customs)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. REID:

He will not do any more.

Topic:   THE ST. JOHN VALLEY RAILWAY.
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April 28, 1914