April 28, 1914

LIB

Frank Broadstreet Carvell

Liberal

Mr. CARVELL:

It is completed; it is

taken off the contractors' or the subcontractors' hands, and the sub-contractor agreed to build the road. The sub-contractor was my own brother and I know what I am talking about.

Topic:   THE ST. JOHN VALLEY RAILWAY.
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CON

John Dowsley Reid (Minister of Customs)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. J. D. REID:

But the Government

have not taken it over.

Topic:   THE ST. JOHN VALLEY RAILWAY.
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LIB

Frank Broadstreet Carvell

Liberal

Mr. CARVELL:

The sub-contractor has

been paid off in full. I am not talking through my hat; I am stating the facts. The sub-contractor has been paid in full, the road has been finished to the satisfaction of the engineer, that is the condition of affairs. I am only pointing out to the minister the kind of road that he is going to take over, operate and upon which he is going to pay back to the province of New Brunswick and the company forty per cent of the gross earnings. I want the minister to consider whether he can run a train over that kind of a road and make any money out of it. If the minister will send an engineer, or go himself with me, I will take him to the place where the conditions exist which I am pointing out to him now. He can visit them himself and see whether I am stating the actual facts or not.

The next important point is with respect to the location. As I stated some time ago, when the scheme was first originated, the road was to run from Grand Falls to St. John. It was to be the outlet of the Grand Trunk Pacific traffic which was intended for export through the port of St. John. If my hon. friend will look at the statutes of 1912, chapter 48, The Railway Subsidies Act, he will find that the subsidy reads as follows, subsection 2 of section 2:

For a line of railway from St. John to Grand Falls, N.B., exclusive of a railway bridge across the Kennebeeasis river, at or near Perry Point, and two railway bridges across the St. John river, one at or near Mistake and one at or near Andover ; in lieu of the subsidy granted by chapter 51 of 1910, section 1, item 12; not exceeding 228 miles.

The original subsidy provided for a line of railway from Grand Falls to St. John, and that was only a revote of the subsidy passed by this House in 1910, also for a line running from Grand Falls to St. John. If the minister will take The Railway Subsidies Act of 1913, chapter 46, section 2, subsection 4, he will find the following in place of the Act to which I have just referred:

To the St. John and Quebec Railway Company, for a line of railway from Andover to St. John, N.B., exclusive of a railway bridge across the St. John river, at or near Mistake, and a railway bridge across the Kennebeeasis river at or near Perry Point in lieu of subsidy granted by chapter 48 of 1912, section 2, item 2; not exceeding 200 miles.

In other words, this Government, in renewing the subsidy in 1913, cut out that portion of the road from Andover to Grand Falls. They have made it impossible to make connections with the Grand Trunk Pacific, and if they do not make connections with the Grand Trunk Pacific they can not pay for axle grease. The Intercolonial railway will lose, I believe, hundreds of thousands of dollars a year in trying to operate that road as a local institution. While it runs through a progressive, well-settled country, the most productive and fertile portion of New Brunswick, it would simply carry out the farm produce of that territory, because in that portion of New Brunswick there is practically no timber. It would only be for the use of the farmers, and running through a large portion of New Brunswick from Andover to St. John, or, as I believe they intended to go only to Westfield on the Canadian Pacific railway, they simply could not operate it except at a loss of hundreds of thousands of dollars. The only way it

was safe, either from the standpoint of the province or of the Dominion, was to carry out the original intention to run from Grand . Falls down to St. John.

We protested against this proposition. I can tell you that we knew our friends in New Brunswick perhaps better than the minister did; we knew the hon. Minister of Marine and Fisheries (Mr. Hazen), we knew the hon. member for York (Mr. McLeod), we knew those gentlemen who were running the province of New Brunswick at that time, and in the year 1912 when this Parliament voted $1,000,000 to aid in the construction there was a protest, to which I shall refer later on. My hon. friend from Victoria and Madawaska (Mr. Michaud), through whose county this portion of the road ran, moved that at least $250,000 of this $1,000,000 be set aside to build a bridge across the St. John at Andover which would have to be built in order to make connection with Grand Falls. We did that because we did not believe that they intended to go to Grand Falls. The Minister of Marine and Fisheries in his blandest manner, and that is saying a good deal, assured the committee, for the House was in committee at the time, that it was not necessary to take any such step as that, that there was no doubt whatever that this road was going to Grand Falls, and he asked the committee to disregard the vapourings of the hon. member for Victoria and Madawaska, and the hon. member for Carleton. They were only throwing dust in the eyes of the people, they were only playing their own game of trying to defeat the construction of this road! This is what they have been firing in our faces for three or four years. Every time that we have pointed out the iniquities of these gentlemen we have been told that we are only trying to prevent the development of this work, that we are only trying to prevent the construction of this road, and every Tory paper in New Brunswick will come out to-morrow morning and say: Carvell is at his old tricks trying to prevent the construction of this railway. I know their game; I can almost hear it sizzling through the press gallery now. But we know what we are talking about. The Minister of Marine and Fisheries was in control at that time, and he opposed the amendment of my hon. friend from Victoria and Madawaska. The next day the Bill came up for third reading, and in the absence of my hon. friend I moved the same amendment, and we put the members on record, as you will find in the 1 Hansard ' of 1912. That was

voted down. The next year, 1913, the very thing happened which we were afraid of in 1912, because when the Subsidy Bill came down, we found that that section from Grand Falls to Andover was left out, and, of course, it would not be necessary to build these bridges. Well, my hon. friend from Victoria and Madawaska (Mr. Michaud) got interested again, and he called the attention of the Minister of Railways to this fact, and he -asked why they cut out the subsidy on the road from Andover to Grand Falls, 25 miles, and what it meant. The Minister of Railways practically told him they were going to make some sort of a trade for running rights over the Canadian Pacific railway for that distance, as will be found reported in ' Hansard ' of June 3, 1913, columns 11672-11673. Then I asked the Minister of Railways if they were going to cut out the subsidy and did not intend to build the road, if he would agree that a certain proportion of the bridge money should also be withheld. The Minister of Railways said: ' Certainly, we will hold the bridge money.' Then I told him, in as polite language as I could, that I did not believe it, and I told him further that they would be back inside of a month for that money. Here is the emphatic statement of Mr. Cochrane-I will read the whole reference:

Mr. Carvell: The minister will remember

that last session this Parliament agreed to lend $1,000,000 to the St. John and Quebec railway for the purpose of helping to construct three bridges. If this proposed agreement with the Canadian Pacific railway goes through, it will be unnecessary to construct the Andover bridge.

Mr. Cochrane: At present, anyway.

Mr. Carvell: Will the minister pay that

$1,000,000 to the company or will he retain a part of it?

Mr. Cochrane: No, the vote is for three

bridges and we should not have authority to pay it out for only two. We shall have to deduct a portion for the Andover bridge.

Mr. Carvell: I am glad to hear that statement. But I want to tell the minister that they will be here inside of one month to have that $1,000,000 voted for the two bridges, the Mistake and Kennebecasis; and more than that, the minister will give it.

Mr. Cochrane: The hon. gentleman may

know more than I do, but the minister will not give it.

But, did he give it? Why, Sir, when you talk about $1,000,000, I must confess I did not know these gentlemen as well as I thought I did, for instead of wanting $1,000,000 they are back here now for $3,000,000, and they are going to get it. That is what I am afraid of.

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LIB
LIB
LIB
LIB

Frank Broadstreet Carvell

Liberal

Mr. CARVELL:

The legislature of New Brunswick did that. My hon. friend from York (Mr. McLeod) can tell you who was responsible for it.

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LIB
LIB

Frank Broadstreet Carvell

Liberal

Mr. CARVELL:

Most certainly he was there. They allowed these gentlemen to sell these bonds for 95. That was away back in 1912. There was no necessity for selling New Brunswick four per cent bonds for 95 in 1912.

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LIB
LIB

Frank Broadstreet Carvell

Liberal

Mr. CARVELL:

I will tell you about the Yankees later on. In the year 1909 or 1910, a company was incorporated in the province of New Brunswick, known as the St. John Valley Railway Company, composed of local people. I do not say they were capitalists, but they were good men anyway, and they represented both sides of politics; men who honestly wanted this road to be constructed. I want to tell you, Sir, that there is no road under construction or under discussion in Canada to-day that was needed more than this railway between Grand Falls and St. John. The Minister of Trade and Commerce is listening to me, and I am glad of it, because he knows this whole question. He knows the history of the people along the route of this railway; he knows the conditions there; he knows what the people suffered, because he has represented two of the constituencies along the route, namely, the counties of Kings and York, which are vitally interested in this matter. This portion of the province of New Brunswick has been settled for 125 or 130 years by the United Empire Loyalists, the finest stock I believe in Canada to-day. The settlers there had been closed up in the winter months, twenty-five or thirty miles away from railway communication, and they consequently suffered great hardships. This condition of affairs existed in portions of Kings, Queens, and York counties. There is no place in Canada where railway facilities are needed more than just along the route where this road is being built.

In the inception of this project everybody was working together, everybody was working for the common weal. As I have said, a company of local people was incorporated for the purpose of the construction of this road. But when the thing became almost a certainty, and it looked as though the road would be built, then you could see

something else commencing to work. The Minister of Marine and Fisheries, I have no doubt, will tell the House the rest of that portion of the story, because there is nobody better qualified than he to give the history of that aspect of the case. Suffice it to say that in 1910, a certain gentleman was imported from the United States, by the name of Arthur R. Gould. Instead of blaming Arthur R. Gould, I have an intense admiration for the man. He is a bright, shrewd, industrious Yankee, a man who could twist the Minister of Marine and Fisheries, and the member for York (Mr. McLeod), and the Premier of New Brunswick, all up together in balls and throw them ovar this building half a dozen times; a man who could mould and chisel these people just as he could a piece of putty; a man who says to these gentlemen, I want $25,000 a mile, and I want the right to sell the bonds at ninety-eight, and he gets the legislation; a man who could come back two years afterwards and say, I want the right to sell these bonds at ninety-five, and he gets that right; a man who could say to them, I want $10,000 a mile in bonds additional to what I have got, and I will negotiate this transaction through a Mr. Lisman of New York, and he gets that right; a man who did come back a few weeks ago and said: 'Well, legislation is a failing

of mine, and I fell down and did not get the money; you had better grant me another $10,000 worth of bonds.' He got that also, so that he has now received $35,000 worth of bonds. He was not satisfied with the last issue at 4 per cent and he got them at 4i per cent. If Mr. Gould is not entitled to some credit, I do not know who is. A man who can come to the province of New Brunswick and twist the Government and the Legislature of that province around his finger and bleed our people to the extent of four or five or six million dollars, is a man of some proportions. Why was Mr. Gould brought over? Before the election of 1911, we were determined that this road should be operated by the Intercolonial. My hon. friends had a wonderful leaning towards the Canadian Pacific railway. When this company was incorporated in 1910, nothing would do but an electric road. As Mr. Gould was the representative of the Canadian Pacific railway in the state of Maine, he was imported into New Brunswick, and became the only man on earth with whom my hon. friends would do busi-

ness, and they gave him what he wanted. In 1911, Mr. Malcolm, a railroad builder who has built the International, a 112 mile railroad, on a bond guarantee of $8,000 a mile and a subsidy of $6,400 a mile, and who has financed the rest of that road himself, with the assistance of the owners and managers of the Toronto Mail and Empire, who are the men of means and who know how to handle their means, offered to take the bond guarantees and subsidies and build the road up to the standard existing at that time, which rvas the standard of the Transcontinental railway. He was, however, simply laughed to scorn by my hon. friend the Minister of Marine and Fisheries. The Government would not listen to him; they would hardly give him civil replies, and he was practically kicked out of Fredericton. In their opinion; this road must be given to Gould, and therefore they gave him an act of incorporation in 1910, at which date there were associated with him four other gentlemen, respected and responsible residents of the province of New Brunswick.

After the election of 1911, when this party came into power and saw visions of millions and of having everything in their own hands, the funny business commenced. A very important lawsuit has been going on in the city of St. John, where there reside? a gentleman of the name of J. D. Seely, an honourable, upright, estimable gentleman, and a man of some financial ability. The only failing he possesses, so far as i know, is that he is a Liberal; and, of course, he had to be squeezed out, as it would not do to leave him in. This is how they got him out. My hon. friend the member for York, N.B. (Mr. McLeod), is given credit in the courts as being the gentleman who engineered the matter. Mr. Gould applied to the legislature for certain amendments to his act of incorporation. There is a rule in the Legislature of New Brunswick that notice must be given in the newspapers, &c., but they did not give any notice as to the real issue in the Bill.

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CON
LIB

Frank Broadstreet Carvell

Liberal

Mr. CARVELL:

Yes, chapter 18. The

original Act was in 1910, chapter 52, which has sixteen sections. The pur-4 p.m. pose of the Act of 1912 was to amend the Act of 1910 and to add certain sections. Section 17, an unimportant one, was added; and then came the real fine Italian hand of my hon. friend the member for York, N.B., and of the Premier, according to sworn testimony

given in the court at St. John last week. Section 19 reads as follows:

No person shall after passing of this amending Act be a director of the company, unless ho is a shareholder holding fifty shares of stock in the company, which have been paid in cash and not otherwise to be extent of the full par value thereof.

Unfortunately Mr. Seely did not meet those requirements, as he had not paid for his fifty shares in cash. Section 19, which is as follows, was added:

The issued shares of the company which on the 10th day of April, A.D. 1912, had been fully paid up to the extent of the par value thereof in cash and not otherwise shall, on the date of the passing of this amending Act, constitute the whole of the issuing shares of the company.

This Act was passed on the 20th day of April, 1912, and provided that only those men who actually subscribed and paid up their money to the extent of $5,000 on the 10th day of April were eligible to be directors of this company; and, as Mr. Seely did not come within that provision, he was squeezed out. In St. John, sworn testimony was given that Flemming and McLeod engineered this matter. I do not know, because I was not there; I am only giving the sworn testimony as reported in a St. John newspaper. This is the way in which they did so. As this

was a private Bill, these sections could not be added because notice had not been given. Therefore, they made a Government Bill of it; they were able to put the Bill through without notice and squeeze Mr. Seely out, and then Mr. Gould had the whole thing in his own hands. He, however, was afraid of trouble and tried to settle with Mr. Seely. In the first place, he gave Mr. Seely his note for $4,000, which he paid. Then he gave him the note of the St. John and Quebec Railway Company for $12,000. It is important to remember the different names, as they are so nearly alike that sometimes they get mixed up. This note was endorsed by the Quebec and St. John Construction Company. Mr. Seely sold the note to Mr. Nagle, a prominent gentleman in St. John. At its maturity, the companies refused to pay the note. Mr. Nagle brought suit, and the matter was tried out the week before last; the case was adjourned until yesterday, and I presume has been settled before now.

The point at issue in the court was that Mr. Seely obtained the endorsement of the Quebec and St. John Construction Company by some fraudulent representations. It is not denied that the note was given nor that Mr. Seely endorsed it to Mr. Nagle as a bona fide business transaction; but it is claimed that in some way the Quebec and St. John Construction Company were misrepresented when they endorsed the note, and they therefore claim that they were not liable. In this lawsuit some very important evidence became public. According to the Act, the Dominion subsidy was voted to the St. John aftd Quebec Railway Company-not to the railway, but to the company. The St. John and Quebec Railway Company was incorporated in 1910, its Act was amended in 1912 by the Legislature of New Brunswick, and it is the company which squeezed out the Canadian directors and left only the Yankees and a man of the name of Ross Thomson, who, 1 believe, was originally a Can ad an, but was brought over here by Mr. Gould. It does not make very much difference who the directors of the railway company are, because they have not got anything. My friends talks about Mackenzie and Mann financing. Why, they are only in the infant class, in the kindergarten class, compared with these fellows in New Brunswick. The St. John and Quebec Railway Company, with the knowledge and consent of the New Brunswick Tory Government, assigned the stock over to a man by the name of-well, I have forgotten his name; perhaps my hon. friend from York (Mr. McLeod) can give it, as he is more familiar with these things than I am. At any rate, this man is a clerk in Mr. Gould's office. He assigned all the stock of the company, $2,000,000-all the bonds, all the subsidies, all the contracts with construction companies to build the road- over to the Quebec and St. John Construction Company. Now, the Quebec and St. John Construction Company does not have Mr. A. R. Gould as its president, but it does have Mr. A. R. Gould's son. And Air. A. R. Gould's son and his American associates are the men who are getting our good money and taking it to New York, and the road is being built from New Tork. We cannot investigate the thing, because the money is all handed over in bulk to the New York concern, and the New York concern are doing the real trick. I think I have made good my statement that .Mackenzie and Mann are only in the kindergarten class of finance as compared with these people. Because, while it is

alleged that Mackenzie and Mann, or the -Canadian Northern railway-I do not know this, I am only saying that it is currently reported-assign their bonds and subsidies over to the Mackenzie and Mann -Construction Company, yet the Mackenzie and Mann Construction -Company live in Canada, and you can get at them and investigate them and know what they are doing. But the Tory party in New Brunswick 'hand over millions to an American coac-ern who are doing their business in New York, and the books are kept in New York.

We are going to try to investigate this thing. I know we shall have a lot of trouble trying to get those books. I see that my very dear friend, Mr. Flemming, the premier of New Brunswick, has so far recovered from a recent illness that he is able to tak-e a trip to New York, ostensibly for his health; but I think almost any member of the House, in view of the information I have given, can understand the real reason of that gentleman's trip to New York. And I have no doubt that if we ever get those books in court we shall find them doctored -up in pretty good shape. But we will get them if it is possible to get them.

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LIB

Henry Robert Emmerson

Liberal

Mr. EMMERSON:

Under what Act is the Quebec and St. John Construction Company chartered?

Topic:   THE ST. JOHN VALLEY RAILWAY.
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LIB

Frank Broadstreet Carvell

Liberal

Mr. CARVELL:

The Quebec and St. John Construction -Company is chartered under the provisions of the Dominion Joint Stock -Companies Act. I have the facts here, -and, as my hon. friend has asked me, I will give them. I read from a synopsis of the letters patent, at page 47, I think, of the last report:

Quebec & St. John Construction Company, Limited.

Incorporated, May 10, 1912.

Amount of capital stock, $1,000,000. Number of shares, 10,000.-Amount of each share, $100.

Corporate members.-Charles Austin Barnard, advocate and K.C.; Leopold Barry, advo-. cate; Edward Denis Maguire, accountant; Woltomar Hector Huhn Hume, secretary; and Charles Francis Adams, stenographer all of Montreal, Quebec.

First or provisional directors.

Charles Austin Barnard, Leopold Barry and Edward Denis Maguire.

Chief place of Business.-City of Montreal, Quebec.

Objects of the company.. .Vide p. 4297, Canada Gazette, 1911-12.

It is safe to say that none of these gentlemen have anything to do with the company

now. As I stated, the president is the son of Mr. A. R. Gould. -I believe that Mr. Ross Thomson, who is acting in the dual capacity of secretary of the St. John and Quebec Railway Company and chief engineer of the road, is also a director of the Quebec and St. John Construction Company.

Now, we have found that up to the present time some $2,728,000 of the good money of the people of New Brunswick has been handed over to this Yankee concern to take to New York and do with as they have a mind to; and that something over $500,000 -I have forgotten the exact -amount-of subsidies of the Dominion Government have been handed over to the same, and they have been building this tramway. It is alleged by Mr. Dugal, and I am satisfied he is able to prove his statement, that some of this money has not gone into the construction of the road. But, as I have said, that is a matter that will be threshed out before another tribunal. But to show that Mr. Dugal is not moving in the dark, to show that he has good reasons for the faith that is in- him, I want to give to the House the actual estimate of one section of that road south of Frederioton. This we have absolutely, and know wbat we are talking about. They will tell you that the railway from Fredericton to Gagetown is the expensive part, because they are building it to a 0-4 per cent grade. I-t is true, they are building it to 0-4 per cent one way and to 0-6 pen: cent the other way, except in two or three places, where they have changed it. But they are following the river iSt. John, and the tide ebbs and flows on that river along that whole twenty-eight miles of railroad. It ebbs and flows above the city of Fredericton. So, if you put in- enough crooks and turns you -cannot fail to build a road with -a low grade. But -so crooked is this line that the first man- to protest against it to this Government was the gentleman who was then member for York, now Mr. Justice Crocket. He made his protest in the form of a letter ito this Government away back early in 1912. I read that letter in this House in the course of a debate which has been referred to before. Hon. members will find it in ' Hansard ' of 1913, page 11677. When- sitting in this House as representative of the county of York, that gentleman felt it his duty to apprise the Government of the actual condi-

tion of affairs. Now, I have here the actual progress estimates of that road down to the end of 1913, and no work has been done since then, for by that date the road had been practically completed. Amid remember, Mr. Speaker, it is not a difficult matter to find out what this road has cost, because it is under contract to three different contractors, and they are building the entire road ready to be taken over by the Intercolonial railway. The company furnishes rails and fastenings, ties, bridges, right-of-way, engineering and station houses. With these exceptions, everything that goes to make the completed road is being built by these contractors. The contractors for this particular portion are J. H. Corbett and Son. Mr. Corbett is a well-known contractor. He built section 1 of the Transcontinental; he is-either a -contractor or a sub-contractor-sub-contractor, I think-on the Welland canal; a man who looms big in the railway contracting world of Canada, a man who knows exactly what he is doing and how to do it. Here is the progress estimate down to 1913:

Residency No. 11-Oromocto to Upper

Gagetown.

Actual.

Clearing, 77.37 acres at $40 $ 3,094, 80Grubbing, 6.28 acres at $150 . . . . 942 00Solid rock, 20,678 cu. yds. at $1.25. 25,847 50

Other material, 163,716 cu. yds. at

30c

50,314 80Rock borrow, 2,184 cu. yds. at $1.. 2,1S4 00Train haul, 12,703 cu. yds. at 40c. 5,081 20Overhaul! 1,023,415 cu. yds. at lc. 10,234 15Track laying, 10-66 miles at $400. 4,264 00Ballast, 19,200 cu. yds. at 40c.. .. 7,680 00Concrete, 490-56 cu. yds. at $8.. .. 3,924 48

" streets creek, 300 cu. yds.

at $8 2,400 00

Culvert excavations-

Dry, 89 cu. yds. at 50c

44 50Wet, 529 cu. yds. at $1

529 00Fencing, 7,116 rods at $1

7,116 00Gates, 45 pairs, at $7

315 00Telegraph line, 11 miles at $100... 1,100 00Actual $125,070 43

That makes a total of $125,070.43 for 10.7 miles of railroad. I have gone over this with a man who knows all about it, and I am going to give the House now a statement of what the company itself has furnished and what it will take to complete that part of the road:

Station houses on mud sills, 2 at $2,000, $4,000 Plank for road crossings, 9 at 1,000 ft. 180

Road signs, 9 at $5 45

Cattle guards, 9 at $25 225

Water tank, 1 at 3,000

To complete fill at Street's Creek,

25,000 cub. yds. at 40c 10,000

Passing sidings, 2 of 1,800 ft. long; common sidings, 2 of 500 ft. long,

4,600 ft $5,000

Right of way, $1,000 per mile 10,600

Sleepers, 30,000 at 40c 12,000

Rails and fittings, 13,354 tons at $33 . . 44,068 Bolts, spikes, etc., $500 per mile .. . . 5,260

In going over that I find there have been two omissions and, for fear my friends may find fault with me, I will give those omissions. I do not think the rails for sidings are included and, of -course, the engineering is not included. The rails could not amount to more than $400 a. mile; if you take the engineering and the rails together you could not add to the cost more than $1,500 a mile. The total cost, as I have it here, is $219,448.43; if you divide that by 10.7 you have a cost per mile of $20,509.20. If you add to that $1,500 a mile for engineering and rails for sidings you have practically $22,000 a mile. That company is getting $31,400 of our good money, excepting a little discount and some interest which they will pay on construction, and the -Government of New Brunswick have given them $10,000 a mile in addition to what they have already received. They are building that ten miles of road for about $22,000 a mile. They have already cleaned up about $7,000 or $8,000 a mile in cold cash, and the Legislature of New Brunswick has just voted another $10,000 a mile to be put into the pockets of these Yankee and Canadian boodlers. This ten miles of road is giving them a profit of $18,000 a mile, or $180,000 for the ten miles.

Topic:   THE ST. JOHN VALLEY RAILWAY.
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CON

John Dowsley Reid (Minister of Customs)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. J. D. REID:

We were justified in

-paying double subsidy, were we not?

Topic:   THE ST. JOHN VALLEY RAILWAY.
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LIB

Frank Broadstreet Carvell

Liberal

Mr. CARVELL:

I am admitting that you were justified in paying double subsidy. I am satisfied that the Minister of Railways has been watching this matter as closely as it could be watched and I am satisfied that he has not paid out a dollar unless he has found figures in his department which have justified him in doing so. I would almost think, from the knowledge I have of the gentleman who represents the minister on this particular work, Mr. Taylor, that the figures are all right too. I know they have fooled Mr. Taylor; I know they have not given him correct information. I know that Mr. Taylor has not been able to report the true state of facts to the Government, but I do believe that he has been absolutely honest and above-board, and has tried to keep his chief properly informed.

Topic:   THE ST. JOHN VALLEY RAILWAY.
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CON

John Dowsley Reid (Minister of Customs)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mt. J. D. REID:

We paid only on

Taylor's certificate.

Topic:   THE ST. JOHN VALLEY RAILWAY.
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LIB

Frank Broadstreet Carvell

Liberal

Mr. CARVELL:

I believe that. While I dare say Mr. Taylor's figures are incorrect, I am not blaming Mr. Taylor for it, because he would have to go to the railway company to get the figures or a great number of them. I am not arguing that the whole road can be completed as cheaply as this ten miles can, but I do say that the 117 miles will not cost $28,000 or $29,000 a mile. The company received not bonds but actual cash cut of the bonds and subsidies of about $28,000 a mile, and they owe to-day $200,000 or $300,000 to their contractors. I am informed on the very best of authority that it will take $500,000 or $600,000 to finisih that 117 miles of road. If I am right in saying that, in addition to the $28,000 a mile which the company have already received, this road will cost $500,000 or $600,000 before it is completed, and that the company owe their contractors $200,000, then there are $700,000 or $800,000 in cold cash which the people of this country have handed over to this gang of Yankees from New York, who are now coming back to the Legislature of New Brunswick and saying: give us more money or we will not finish this road. It is my duty, as representing the people through whose territory part of this road runs, to bring these facts before the members of this House; I would be a criminal if I did net do so. I am laying these facts before the acting Minister of Railways; I am laying them before the Minister of Trade and Commerce (Mr. Foster), a gentleman who, I am sure, will give this matter honest and serious attention; a gentleman who, I feel confident, is a juryman who has not been packed for the purpose of giving a false verdict, and who will consider this matter upon its merits only.

I am not going into the cost of this road because on another occasion that aspect will be dealt with before another tribunal. The particulars I have given my hon. friend can be verified by application to the railway company. I am not merely giving him the source of my information; I am giving him the document itself and he can go tj the railway company, to their engineers or to James H. Corbett, and he will find out whether or not my figures are correct. 1 know that portions of this road will cost more than the figures given. I am familiar with the construction of this road from Woodstock to Centreville, twenty-six miles distant. It passes through my own constituency; through the homestead

where I was born and where my mother and brothers live to-day; where I am every week of my life- when I -am in New Brunswick. I know every -mile of it.

Topic:   THE ST. JOHN VALLEY RAILWAY.
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CON

John Dowsley Reid (Minister of Customs)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. J. D. REID:

Where are the ten

miles of which the hon. gentleman is complaining?

Topic:   THE ST. JOHN VALLEY RAILWAY.
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April 28, 1914