June 2, 1913


Motion agreed to.


LIB

David Warnock

Liberal

Mr. WARNOCK:

Has the minister any report on the Porcupine Hills addition to the Rocky Mountain reserve ?

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-THE SUPPLY BILL.
Subtopic:   DOMINION FOREST RESERVES AND PARKS.
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CON

Thomas Wilson Crothers (Minister of Labour)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. CROTHERS:

There are three hundred and sixty square miles in that reserve at the present time; it is proposed to add two hundred and four square miles, making a total of five hundred and sixty-four square miles.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-THE SUPPLY BILL.
Subtopic:   DOMINION FOREST RESERVES AND PARKS.
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LIB

Frank Oliver

Liberal

Mr. OLIVER:

This reserve is marked on the map as the proposed addition to the Rocky Mountain reserve. It is in townships 9, 10, 11, 12 and 13, east and west of the fifth meridian.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-THE SUPPLY BILL.
Subtopic:   DOMINION FOREST RESERVES AND PARKS.
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CON

Thomas Wilson Crothers (Minister of Labour)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. CROTHERS:

The Porcupine Hills comprise an area of one hundred and ninety-eight square miles. They are separated from the main Rocky mountains by a narrow valley, and rise to a height ol between five thousand and six thousand feet above the sea level. They are-forested with spruce, Douglas fir, larch,-pine and poplar. The stand of timber is not continuous, but is good in places and natural reproduction is satisfactory. The hills are surrounded by a range of agricultural country, which is supplied with timber therefrom and which depends on the streams from the hills for its water supply.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-THE SUPPLY BILL.
Subtopic:   DOMINION FOREST RESERVES AND PARKS.
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LIB

David Warnock

Liberal

Mr. WARNOCK:

There are quite a number of settlers in these hills, many of them farmers. Is it proposed that they shall be transferred ?

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-THE SUPPLY BILL.
Subtopic:   DOMINION FOREST RESERVES AND PARKS.
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CON

Thomas Wilson Crothers (Minister of Labour)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. CROTHERS:

I think it is intended that, where there are settlers in any of these reserves, an arrangement will be made with them to move elsewhere.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-THE SUPPLY BILL.
Subtopic:   DOMINION FOREST RESERVES AND PARKS.
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LIB

David Warnock

Liberal

Mr. WARNOCK:

There are quite a large number of settlers in that portion of the country known as the Porcupine Hills, Maeleod district, and I think there will be-a good deal of objection on their part to moving.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-THE SUPPLY BILL.
Subtopic:   DOMINION FOREST RESERVES AND PARKS.
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LIB

Frank Oliver

Liberal

Mr. OLIVER:

I am not personally

familiar with this locality, but as the hon.. member for Maeleod (Mr. Warnook) says, there has been a settlement there for twenty-five years. It is well established, and while not largely agricultural it is, I suppose, the best and most thoroughly established grazing area in all the West. There is agriculture accompanying the grazing, and I must say, if I am not mistaken as to the area covered, that my hon. friend is heaping up a good deal of trouble for himself in undertaking to establish a reserve covering the whole area. I am not suggesting that it would not be right and proper for him to make reservation of certain areas within that area; it is quite-possible that a careful examination would show that there are smaller areas that might possibly be reserved, but to abso-

lutely blanket six or eight townships where people have been living for twenty-five years is assuming a rather serious responsibility, and I would not like to let this section pass without entering my formal and most emphatic protest.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-THE SUPPLY BILL.
Subtopic:   DOMINION FOREST RESERVES AND PARKS.
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CON

Thomas Wilson Crothers (Minister of Labour)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. CROTHERS:

I have not before me any information as to the number of settlers that there may be in this district, but I do not think the officers who have personally examined the reserve, and who recommended these additions, would do so if they were aware that it was inhabited by a large number of people. In some cases a few squatters were found in some of the reserves as at present constituted and we have made arrangements with them to move to other places, and have paid them for some improvements they have made. If anything of that kind turns out, they will not be disturbed in the meantime, and an amendment may be made next year.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-THE SUPPLY BILL.
Subtopic:   DOMINION FOREST RESERVES AND PARKS.
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LIB

David Warnock

Liberal

Mr. WARNOCK:

Some years ago every homestead or fractional part of a homestead in that part of the country was taken up. There are many ranchers and farmers in there, really mixed farmers now, who have been in there for over twenty years. They have good buildings, considerable improvements and good fences, and I think there will be a good deal of reluctance on their part to move. I certainly think that a considerable portion of this land is private property, the property of the Waldron Ranch Company. I know that their land lies pretty well on to the side of the Porcupine Hills.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-THE SUPPLY BILL.
Subtopic:   DOMINION FOREST RESERVES AND PARKS.
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CON

Thomas Wilson Crothers (Minister of Labour)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. CROTHERS:

I am told by the officer who has charge of the matter that there are no settlers in the portion it is proposed to add to this reserve, and that it does not include the Waldron ranch.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-THE SUPPLY BILL.
Subtopic:   DOMINION FOREST RESERVES AND PARKS.
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LIB

Frank Oliver

Liberal

Mr. OLIVER:

This information does

not coincide with the information on the homestead map, so the two branches of the _ department will have to fight it out. It is true that there is a considerable portion of the area absolutely vacant, but there are portions of it that have been taken by settlers.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-THE SUPPLY BILL.
Subtopic:   DOMINION FOREST RESERVES AND PARKS.
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Section agreed to. Bill reported, read the third time, and passed.


INTER-IMPERIAL TELEGRAPH SERVICE.


On motion of Hon. L. P. Pelletier (Postmaster General), Bill No. 188, to provide for more advantageous Telegraphic Communication between Canada and the United Kingdom and other parts of the British Empire, was read the second time, and the Mr. OLIVER. House went into Committee thereon. (Mr. Deputy Speaker in the Chair.) On section 1-short title:


LIB

Rodolphe Lemieux

Liberal

Mr. LEMIEUX:

Whilst I am quite willing to give a chance to the Poulsen Company to implement by deed what it promises by words, I cannot help saying that the Bill is a deception for all those who have favoured so far the principle of the state ownership of cables. There is no interest taken in the present measure in the country, and my hon. friend must have noticed, ever since he introduced his Bill, that the public has not been responsive. The public expected something substantial, and they get only what I call a speculative enterprise. Notwithstanding what was stated by my hon. friend when he introduced this legislation, wireless telegraphy is yet in its infancy. There is nothing final yet in this wonderful discovery. Marconi himself, the leading authority in the world, admits that there are many and many steps to be taken before this notable invention is perfected. An exhaustive investigation of the Marconi Wireless system has recently taken place in England. As my hon. friend the Postmaster General will remember, some years ago, Mr. Samuel the British Postmaster General, made an agreement with Marconi to equip all the ships of Great Britain w'ith the wireless, and he dotted the coast around the United Kingdom with stations in order to give the British navy the benefit of that wonderful invenr tion. But whilst wireless telegraphy is certainly' a great invention, which to-day in all civilized countries is obligatory upon ship-owners for the protection of lives and the safety of navigation, in the distribution of news or the transmission of messages, the cable is still the instrument which finds favour with the public. I stated the other day that the Poulsen system, excellent as it may be was somewhat criticised among the scientists and specialists in wireless. I have the evidence of Marconi himself taken only a few' days ago in London. I stated, when the minister introduced his Bill, that the trouble with this Poulsen system is that atmospheric conditions interfere with the proper working of the wireless. Mr. Marconi says in his evidence:

Lecturing before tiie Royal Institution on May 24, 1907, (copy of which lecture I have produced), Professor Fleming stated in regard to the Poulsen arc:

' No one who has worked practically with the apparatus can say that it is a simple and easy one to use. A very little want of exact adjustment causes the arc to be extinguished or ehe fluctuate greatly in current, and, compared with the extremely simple appliances required for spark telegraphy, the advantage in ease of working is largely on the si-de of the spark.'

An interesting and practical proof of the

opinions just quoted was demonstrated in a competition which was conducted by the

Turkish army in May, 1911, when the Tele-funken system, the Poulsen system, and the Marconi system were in competition tor the purpose of demonstrating which was the most efficient system for the Turkish army to adopt. Trials were carried out during a period of ten days. The Telefunken system failed to get a complete message through until the last two or three days of the trial, and then only at night time; the Marconi system maintained good communication throughout the whole period; the Poulsen apparatus failed entirely; their arc hlew out on the average once a minute. The Turkish army adopted the Marconi system.

Major Cochrane, late of the British army, was present at these trials as engineer on behalf of the Marconi Company, and I produce a letter signed by him confirming what I have stated, and he is available to corroborate in detail before this committee what I have said should he be required.

I would draw particular attention to these tests in view of the evidence which has been given before this committee, that the Poulsen system is believed to be more simple and efficient for short-distance communications. It is unnecessary for me, perhaps, to state that the first essentials for military stations are simplicity, efficiency, and reliability, and military stations such as these are short-distance installations.

Then, it goes on to deal with the various instruments. My hon. friend will probably say that Marconi is interested. Of course, his invention is decidedly the best in his own judgment, and he does not care to see Poulsen or Telefunken take precedence over him. I quoted the other day the opinion of Charles Bright who is a world-wide authority and the son of the gentleman who, some seventy years ago, laid in the Atlantic ocean the first cable and who has, during his lifetime, made a specialty of this question of telegraphy, by both cable and wireless. I would also invite my hon. friend to .read the London Times of the 8th of May last which contains a long article -on this question of wireless and which he might find useful. According to all the authorities, the cable is unquestionably the best medium for the transmission of news and messages. I shall not weary the committee by quoting at length the expressions of leading Canadians and people high in authority in England who for the last fifteen years have vainly clamoured for a state-owned cable. Although there were forebodings when the Pacific cable was established, and it was said it would not pay expenses, the fact is that there is now a surplus every year, and thete has been a steady reduction in the cable rates. These reductions have not only been valuable to the commercial world, but from the Imperial point of view they have drawn closer together distant portions of the Empire with the Motherland. With our leased wire between the Pacific ocean and Montreal, it seems to me that we could easily cover the last gap between Montreal and the Atlantic coast by using the Government line along the St. Lawrence to Labrador. It would not cost $2,500,000 to lay an Atlantic cable, including the stations and the repair vessel. At the conference of 1911, when the wireless systems were as well known as they are to-day, the conference, led by Mr. Asquith, Sir Wilfrid. Laurier, Sir Joseph Ward and other Imperial statesmen, expressed the opinion that it was not the wireless system, but a cable which was needed in order to give the British Empire cheap telegraphic communication. The resolution passed by the conference was to the effect that if the cable companies did not materially reduce their rates, the Imperial Conference was of the opinion that the time would soon come when an Atlantic cable should be laid on the same principle as the Pacific cable. It is true the cable companies have somewhat reduced their rates, but I agree with my hon. friend that the reduction is only infinitesimal. We are told that a cheaper rate will be given under this legislation and that a guarantee deposit will be made by the Poulsen Company, but the more I read the Bill and the agreement, the less I see the permanency of that deposit. They deposit the money, it is true, but it will soon vanish, from what I gather in the contract. I have no objection to giving the Poulsen system a trial, but my hon. friend should not think that it is, as they say in Paris: le dernier cri. I am afraid

we will have a conflict between the Marconi wireless and the Poulsen system. Although each company will guarantee that it will not be troubled by the waves of the other, yet in the wireless world there is continual interference. I would infer from the remarks made by the Postmaster General that the Poulsen concern is a British concern, but I am informed that it is an American corporation. This Bill contains the usual clauses. There is a contradiction between clause 3, which creates the Government Ocean Telegraph Board, and clause 9, which gives certain powers to the Eailway Commission. It seems to me that the members of the Cabinet have already so many duties to perform that they should not take upon themselves the administration of a department which is so very technical in its nature, but that they should rather leave to the Railway Board to deal with the wireless. I think the Railway Board has the necessary powers, not only to deal with railways, but with cables and telegraphs, and I* think wireless.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-THE SUPPLY BILL.
Subtopic:   INTER-IMPERIAL TELEGRAPH SERVICE.
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CON

Louis-Philippe Pelletier (Postmaster General)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. PELLETIER:

Not cables.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-THE SUPPLY BILL.
Subtopic:   INTER-IMPERIAL TELEGRAPH SERVICE.
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LIB

Rodolphe Lemieux

Liberal

Mr. LEMIEUX:

Yes, I myself passed

the legislation.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-THE SUPPLY BILL.
Subtopic:   INTER-IMPERIAL TELEGRAPH SERVICE.
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CON

Louis-Philippe Pelletier (Postmaster General)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. PELLETIER:

It was conditional.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-THE SUPPLY BILL.
Subtopic:   INTER-IMPERIAL TELEGRAPH SERVICE.
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June 2, 1913