June 2, 1913

LIB

Edmond Proulx

Liberal

Mr. PROTJLX:

The conditions existing

in New Brunswick last year in that regard may be similar to those in Ontario. We voted salaries for two judges last year, for instance, and almost all the judges in Ontario said they were not needed.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-THE SUPPLY BILL.
Subtopic:   JUDGES ACT AMENDMENT.,
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LIB

Roch Lanctôt

Liberal

Mr. ROCH LANCTOT:

As a representative of the farming community, I also, Mr. Chairman, wish to make a few remarks on the salaries of judges and on retirement allowances paid to them by the Government. It appears we have this year a surplus of 55 millions, and to hear the hon. members who have spoken during the last few days, it would seem that an effort is being made to reduce that surplus, first of all by paying the members themselves an extra indemnity of $1,000 or $1,500 each for the present session.

I will now take all of these government pensioners, and I may say that -the farming class is strongly opposed to all the high salaries we are paying.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-THE SUPPLY BILL.
Subtopic:   JUDGES ACT AMENDMENT.,
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CON

Joseph Hormisdas Rainville

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. RAINVILLE:

Is the farming class

Mr. EMMERSON.

equally opposed to the ten millions we have just voted for them?

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-THE SUPPLY BILL.
Subtopic:   JUDGES ACT AMENDMENT.,
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LIB

Roch Lanctôt

Liberal

Mr. LANCTOT:

It will take ten years

to pay that amount. I am now speaking about the judges. We have in the province of Quebec fifteen judges who are receiving a pension from the Government, and that is costing us $90,500 per annum. The great province of Ontario is only having $15,000 under that head.

I take the case of a judge who resigns his position at the age of 50-for quite a number of men live to the age of 80, and even more-but let us suppose that this judge is going to live until he is 80 years' old. He will be receiving a pension during 30 years. Should his salary be $7,000 a year, that pension will be $4,666 a year. Multiply that 'by 30, and you will have the fabulous sum of $140,000 of pension. Now, add to that compound interest at 7 per cent-because I presume the judges who have resigned, not on account of sickness, but in order to keep their position in financial institutions and big estates-have resigned because they were businessmen, so that that money brings them at least 6 per cent. I therefore conclude that such a judge at the age of 80 years shall have received at least $300,000 from the Government.

I find no words to qualify such an abuse. I will take the case of the Minister of Justice himself, who is drawing in the first place a pension from the Government as a retired judge, a salary as a minister and still another as a member of Parliament. Will not the hon. minister find some means of amending the law in his own case, by abolishing his own pension at least during the time he holds his position as a minister and a member of the House?

I say that if the fanning community was posted on all these matters, they could not tolerate in power a Government under which such abuses are allowed. Farmers are the people who do the greatest amount of work. There is no pension for them and they ask for none.

Why could not a judge on the bench, with a salary of $7,000 a year, provide for his old age by means of an insurance? With such a salary it should be an easy matter for him to take an insurance of $25,000. That is just what we are doing ourselves when we join the mutual benefit societies, such as the Independent Foresters, the Catholic Foresters, and the National Alliance, for instance. Why should they not do like us and buy life annuities?

No; pensions must be paid to these gentlemen. But that is not all. Those who come down from The bench are making places for other favourites. I have been repeatedly told that it was very difficult to get judges nowadays, because lawyers were making a great deal more in their profession. I will

take the case of Mr. Simeon Beaudin, who was a candidate against me in the last election. It was currently said_ in the county that he would not accept a judgship, when he was making $100 a day with his profession. He was a candidate, and I am told that it was the present Premier who forced him to run.

What did happen after the present Government came into power?

Mr. Beaudin was appointed a judge of the Superior Court. He left his $100 per day to become a judge at a salary of $7,000 per annum.

It is said that some lawyers refuse to be appointed judges. I see on the other side of the House, and on this side, for that matter, hon. gentlemen who would be very glad to become judges to-day, and if the hon. Minister of Justice wishes to appoint them he will find enough of them to supersede the whole bench in Montreal and all through the country.

I think the hon. minister should introduce a Bill to amend this law so as to give a pension only to those judges who become incapacitated, even when they have just been appointed to the bench; but I object to the Government paying them a pension which enables them to get rich.

After all it does not cost more to feed a judge than it does to feed a civil servant. Very few are the civil servants who are getting high salaries. The hon. Postmaster General has 900 officers in Montreal only. Very few of them get as -much as $2,000 per annum, and there are quite a number who receive less than $1,000. These young men, like the judges, have their families to support, their children to educate. For them there is no pension varying from $4,000 to $8,000 per annum.

I say, Mr. Chairman, that if the people knew all those particulars, they would severely punish the Government who are perpetuating such a state of things. I am not specially blaming the present Government; I say that both parties are guilty.

It is very well known that it is the lawyers who made the laws. We, farmers, hardly dare to raise our voices here, especially during the first years. The lawyers generally join hands to out for themselves good substantial pensions after they shall have been appointed as judges.

Sir, I do not wish to take up the time of the House any longer, but I enter my protest against this abuse of taking the people's money to pay pensions to men who have absolutely no need of them.

I believe that our duty as legislators should 'be in the first place to increase the pay of the poor employees, of those who are working 300 days during the year, who never have any holidays and who, whenever they lose any time-except through sickness-also lose their salaries.

It is altogether different with a judge who happens to have a slight headache. He immediately applies to the Minister of Justice for a holiday, which enables him to take a six months' trip to Europe, and such an application is seldom refused.

And after that the lawyers in Montreal and elsewhere will say: We have not a sufficient number of judges. That may be true, but there are always two or three travelling in Europe.

I therefore say, Mr. Chairman, that next year, if the hon. Minister of Justice does not bring a remedy to this state of things during the present year, and if he is still at the head of this department, I shall introduce a Bill to amend this ill-omened law and to prevent the paying of pensions to people who have no need whatever of them and are drawing other salaries as in the case of the present Minister of Justice.

(n) For an additional puisne judge of the Supreme Court of Saskatchewan, $6,600 per annum.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-THE SUPPLY BILL.
Subtopic:   JUDGES ACT AMENDMENT.,
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LIB

Frank Oliver

Liberal

Mr. OLIVER:

Where will this judge he located?

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-THE SUPPLY BILL.
Subtopic:   JUDGES ACT AMENDMENT.,
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CON

Charles Joseph Doherty (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. DOHERTY:

The legislation of Ihe

province of Saskatchewan provides for an increase in the number of judges by one judge of the Supreme Court. The legislation does not specify where he is to be located. I am not clear whether under their legislation the judges are distributed through the province.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-THE SUPPLY BILL.
Subtopic:   JUDGES ACT AMENDMENT.,
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LIB
CON

Charles Joseph Doherty (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. DOHERTY:

There is a chief justice and four puisne judges. This will make a chief justice and five puisne judges.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-THE SUPPLY BILL.
Subtopic:   JUDGES ACT AMENDMENT.,
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LIB

Frank Oliver

Liberal

Mr. OLIVER:

I see that the salary of the judge for the Supreme Court in Saskatchewan is $6,000, and in the resolution providing for an additional judge for New Brunswick the salary is $7,000.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-THE SUPPLY BILL.
Subtopic:   JUDGES ACT AMENDMENT.,
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CON

Charles Joseph Doherty (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. DOHERTY:

The judge provided for in New Brunswick is an additional chief justice. This is made necessary owing to the reorganization of their system.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-THE SUPPLY BILL.
Subtopic:   JUDGES ACT AMENDMENT.,
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LIB

Daniel Duncan McKenzie

Liberal

Mr. McKENZIE:

I wish to quote from ' Hansard ' in support of a statement I made earlier in the discussion in respect to the county court of district No. 7, which includes the city of Sydney. On the 18th of July, 1905, when the subject of the salaries of judges was before this House, a resolution was introduced by the then Minister of Justice, Sir Charles Fitzpatrick, as follows:

Nova Scotia. That judge of the county court of the county of Halifax, $3,000 per annum; the judge of the county court for district No. 7, $3,000 per annum.

District No. 7 includes the city of Sydney. Before that resolution was introduced, I

had a promise from the then Minister of Justice that instead of $3,000 for each of those judges, the salary would be $3,500. I said:

I understood the Minister of Justice to say that he would reconsider the matter of the judges of the Halifax district and of district No. 7. I certainly think the salary should he more than $3,000.

The Minister of Justice: There are three or four county court judges who are in receipt of different salaries from those drawn by the other judges. 1 forgot the cases of these three or four judges. I shall have to consult my colleagues, and shall probably be able to make a statement this afternoon.

When the afternoon came, nothing was done, except that the judge at Halifax received $3,600. I hope the Minister of Justice will now rectify the injustice done on that occasion.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-THE SUPPLY BILL.
Subtopic:   JUDGES ACT AMENDMENT.,
Permalink
CON

Charles Joseph Doherty (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. DOHERTY:

When we come to deal, as I hope to deal, with the general subject, I shall endeavour to rectify any error that may have occurred.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-THE SUPPLY BILL.
Subtopic:   JUDGES ACT AMENDMENT.,
Permalink
LIB

Frank Oliver

Liberal

Mr. OLIVER:

What are the salaries of

the judges of the Supreme Court of New Brunswick, other than the chief justice?

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-THE SUPPLY BILL.
Subtopic:   JUDGES ACT AMENDMENT.,
Permalink
CON

Charles Joseph Doherty (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. DOHERTY:

Resolution reported, read the first and the second time, and agreed to.

Mr. DOHERTY thereupon moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 243, to amend the Judges Act.

Motion agreed to, and Bill read the first and the second time.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-THE SUPPLY BILL.
Subtopic:   JUDGES ACT AMENDMENT.,
Permalink

BOUNTY FOR MISS HUTCHINSON.


Bill No. 32, to make further provision respecting Grants of Land to members of the Militia Force on active service in the Northwest-Hon. T. W. Crothers-read the second time, considered in committee, read the third time, and passed.


PETROLEUM AND NAPHTHA INSPECTION ACT AMENDMENT.


Mr. Nantel moved the second reading of Bill No. 321, to amend the Petroleum and Naphtha Inspection Act. He said: Under the provisions of section 23 of this Act, all petroleum imported into Canada must be inspected, and any which does not conform to the requirements of the Act must be 'branded with the word 'rejected,' and must be exported within ten days after the inspection thereof. Under the amendment these provisions apply to petroleum for consumption in Canada and not to imported petroleum intended for exportation. Motion agreed to, Bill read the second time, and House went into Committee thereon. . Mr. McKenzie. On section 1-entry of petroleum and naphtha:


LIB

George Perry Graham

Liberal

Mr. GRAHAM:

What does- the word

'naphtha' cover?

Mr. ARMSTRONG (East Lambton):

Benzine:

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-THE SUPPLY BILL.
Subtopic:   PETROLEUM AND NAPHTHA INSPECTION ACT AMENDMENT.
Permalink
LIB

George Perry Graham

Liberal

Mr. GRAHAM:

I was wondering if in

the technical sense naphtha has anything to do with gasolene.

Mr. NANTEL: No.Mr. GRAHAM: In the interpretation

clause naphtha might cover such things as gasolene.

Mr. NANTEL: In the interpretation

clause of the Act respecting the inspection of petroleum and naphtha it is stated that:

' Naphtha ' means and includes all the refined products, by distillation, of rock or mineral oil, coal, coal tar, or any other mineral substance and having a specific gravity of less than seven pounds and seventy-five hundreths of a pound.

Bill reported, read the third time, and passed.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-THE SUPPLY BILL.
Subtopic:   PETROLEUM AND NAPHTHA INSPECTION ACT AMENDMENT.
Permalink

June 2, 1913