May 30, 1913

LIB
CON

Charles Joseph Doherty (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. DOHERTY:

So far as the salaries of the wardens and deputy wardens are concerned, it is quite true that the increases are small over the salaries that prevailed a good many years ago. I have no doubt it is quite true, because the hon. gentleman says it, that these are very small increases over the salaries that obtained a great many years ago; but, on the other hand, they are increases over the salaries that prevail at the present time and which are fixed by the present Penitentiary Act. If these larger salaries prevailed some years ago it must have been that those who, at the time the present. Penitentiary Act was passed, were charged with the responsibility of dealing with the matter, thought that the salaries were too high. But I would like to point out that we are endeavouring to make the salaries of the same officers in all the penitentiaries the same. While it is quite true that $2,800 is not a very great increase at St. Vincent de Paul, though it is an increase of $400 or of one-sixth of the present salary, it is, in the other penitentiaries, a very considerable increase. The operation of getting the salaries of all the officers of all the penitentiaries on an equal footing prevents a consideration of individual cases exclusively from the point of view of the officer occupying a particular position. The same observation applies to the salary of the deputy warden which, although in St. Vincent de Paul it is increased by $300, in some of the other penitentiaries is increased by a considerably larger amount. With regard to the chaplain, if it had not been suggested by the hon. gentleman, it certainly would not have occurred to me that anybody would have thought that any clergyman attending a service in a church other than his own and taking part in the ceremony or service there would, by reason of that fact, not be considered as giving his

exclusive services to the penitentiary. I would have thought that would have been readily understood from the proviso which says that a clergyman receiving a salary oi $1,200 should make his exclusive and particular office that of chaplain of the penitentiary. It will exclude a clergyman from taking some other position of the same kind to which he would devote himself but I think that the hon. member may feel perfectly confident that nobody will undertake to say that such a clergyman shall never hold or take part in a religious service other than the service of the penitentiary. This proviso, as well as the schedule as a whole, will not affectprejudicially any officer of the penitentiary who is presently in office. The hon. member will notice the clause at the end which makes it plain that the Bill does not involve imposing any new condition on any officer at present in office. This is therule made to govern us in the future. It

seems to be a desirable rule because while it does seem a fair thing that a salary should be paid to a clergyman who might have a large parish or a large congregation and who would only go occasionally to the penitentiary to give his spiritual services to the convicts, it hardly seems fair that a gentleman in that position should be paid the same salary as a gentleman who becomes the chaplain of a penitentiary and is bound as such to give his services, properly speaking, entirely to the institution. I think we may be trusted, and I have no doubt that any gentleman who may be called upon in the future to deal with the matter may be trusted, not to put such an extreme interpretation upon the words as the hon. gentleman suggests.

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LIB

Charles Murphy

Liberal

Mr. MURPHY:

I would like to ask the minister if there is any existing case which makes necessary the distinction he has been explaining?

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CON

Charles Joseph Doherty (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. DOHERTY:

I cannot for the moment recall any, but I will inquire and give my hon. friend the information.

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LIB

Edmond Proulx

Liberal

Mr. PROULX:

I think there is too great a difference between the salary of the warden and that of the deputy warden. I agree with my hon. friend from Laval (Mr. Wilson) when he says that the salary of the deputy shall be $2,000 but I think the salary of the warden should be $2,500. He has his quarters lighted and heated and that is worth $1,000 a year at least.

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LIB
LIB

Edmond Proulx

Liberal

Mr. PROULX:

I know. That would make $3,500 for the warden and $3,000 for the deputy. The warden would have the best quarters, I suppose. In many cases the deputy warden does more work and has more responsibility than the warden. It has been the case in the Kingston penitentiary for some years that the penitentiary has been in charge of the deputy warden.

I think it is still the case even since the superannuation of the old warden and the appointment of the new warden, Colonel Irvine. I do not see why Colonel Irvine was transferred from Stony Mountain to Kingston penitentiary. I saw in the newspapers the other day that he was now at a sanitarium and I understand that he is about 75 years of age. I think he was too old to be transferred from one penitentiary to the other. I would suggest to the minister that he make the salary of the warden $2,500 and that of the deputy $2,000. In regard to the chaplain, I agree with the minister; I think the provision is fair.

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LIB

Charles Arthur Gauvreau

Liberal

Mr. GAUVREAU:

I am surprised to see my hon. friend from Prescott (Mr. Proulx) jump on these officials. He w'ants some of these men reduced and he is ready to have the salaries of others increased. He is ready to give some of them a higher salary than he is prepared to give to the poor member of Parliament who is only getting $2,500.

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CON

Charles Joseph Doherty (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. DOHERTY:

I would like to say a

word in connection with what the hon. member for Prescott has said in regard to the transfer of Colonel Irvine. Speaking in a general way I may say it is the desire of the department in future the warden should perform the duties that belong to the supervision of the entire penitentiary, including the police department as well as the business department. That is what we are looking for in the future. The hon. gentleman has expressed wonderment why Colonel Irvine has 'been transferred, and has referred to his age. He has been transferred to this larger and more important penitentiary, because he is a most highly qualified officer by his experience, his force of character and his capacity for dealing wdth both convicts and guards. Like other people, he is sometimes taken ill, and he has been ill now for a couple of weeks. I understand that he is recovering and that wre may expect him back in a few days. I appointed Colonel Irvine to that position because he was the most efficient person at my disposal.

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LIB

Edmond Proulx

Liberal

Mr. PROULX:

What I object to is that it is not customary to transfer officials at such an advanced age. It is more customary to superannuate them. I think a youilger man should have been chosen. The responsibility and control of the penitentiary will still devolve upon the deputy warden, while the warden will get the nigher salary.

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CON

Charles Joseph Doherty (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. DOHERTY:

When Colonel Irvine is in charge of a penitentiary, the responsibility and control will rest in him. I put him there because I wanted that to be the case. While there are advantages in having younger men, thera are greater advantages in having better men or the 'best men. When the best men, as unquestionably in

this case, is an old man, I shall not be afraid to transfer an old man even i'f it be not customary. I shall try to adhere to good customs; but, when I find a custom that works badly, I shall not adhere to it.

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LIB
CON

Charles Joseph Doherty (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. DOHERTY:

I do not know bis exact age. He is an old man, probably over seventy, but he is a thoroughly efficient 'warden. If the hon. member has the slightest doubt on that point, I would suggest that-he inform himself of conditions at Stony Mountain penitentiary, where Colonel Irvine has been warden for many years.

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LIB

Frank Oliver

Liberal

Mr. OLIVER:

I wish to ask for some information regarding Edmonton penitentiary. I understood the hon. minister to say that it was the intention to have the salaries equalized throughout Canada. I am not contending against that, but I want to point out that this seems to 'be a rule that does not work both ways. When it is a question of salaries for officers in penitentiaries, officers in western Canada get the same salary as officers in eastern Canada. When it is a matter of railway freight rates or bank interest or express rates or almost anything of that kind, the expenses are higher in the West and the rates must therefore be higher than in the East. I am willing to accept my hon. friend's provision in this resolution, if he will use his influence to remove these other inequalities.

This resolution provides that the salary of a warden shall not be more than $2,800. Does that mean that the salaries Of wardens shall be $2,800, or is it intended that there shall be a variation in the salaries; and, if so, on what basis is that variation arranged?

Topic:   PENITENTIARY ACT AMENDMENT.
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CON

Charles Joseph Doherty (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. DOHERTY:

The inspector tells me that the provision in the Act is that the salaries shall not exceed the amounts men-' tioned. It is intended that the salaries shall be the same throughout Canada. We want to get at a result where a man will not be an officer of a particular penitentiary, but will be an officer of a certain rank and available for transfer from one penitentiary to another.

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LIB

Edmond Proulx

Liberal

Mr. PROULX:

Will the minister provide for expenses of removal? There is an item in the supplementary estimates for the expenses of removal of Colonel Irvine from Stony Mountain to Kingston. I think that is another useless expense.

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CON

Charles Joseph Doherty (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. DOHERTY:

The minister will not

transfer anybody except when it is useful to transfer him. When that is the case, it will be useful to pay the expenses of removal.

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LIB

Frank Oliver

Liberal

Mr. OLIVER:

I presume the same condition prevails in regard to all salaries, that Mr. DOHKRTY.

is that the salaries mentioned here will be paid to all officers of these ranks.

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CON

Charles Joseph Doherty (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. DOHERTY:

That is the intention.

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LIB

Frank Oliver

Liberal

Mr. OLIVER:

What are {he present salaries of the warden and deputy warden at Edmonton penitentiary?

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May 30, 1913