May 23, 1913

CON

John Douglas Hazen (Minister of Marine and Fisheries; Minister of the Naval Service)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. HAZEN:

Until the 10th of January, and this year we got it open earlier than usual. The result was to prevent the congestion of grain on the railway in the Northwest. The grain people tell us that it was of the greatest possible advantage. Probably from 13,000,000 to 14,000,000 bushels of grain were taken off the railway and put into ships, and the congestion of the winter before last did not exist last winter.

To provide for the administration of pilotage and the maintenance and repair of the steamer Eureka, $36,000.

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LIB
CON

John Douglas Hazen (Minister of Marine and Fisheries; Minister of the Naval Service)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. HAZEN:

At Father Point. She

takes the pilots to and from the vessels as they come up the St. Lawrence.

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LIB

William F. Carroll

Liberal

Mr. CARROLL:

Has the minister any control over pilotage commissions such as we have in Cape Breton ?

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CON

John Douglas Hazen (Minister of Marine and Fisheries; Minister of the Naval Service)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. HAZEN:

There is a pilotage commission who have direct control; they are appointed by Order in Council. If the pilots do not discharge their duty satisfactorily they can be removed by Order in Council.

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LIB

William F. Carroll

Liberal

Mr. CARROLL:

Old and reliable pilots have been dismissed from the service at Sydney harbour and others have been suspended. They tell me it was for political reasons. As to that, I do not know. I know the minister or the department is not responsible for that, but the commission is responsible. One of the most reliable pilots we have on the coast of Sydney harbour, resident at Low Point, was dismissed a year and a half ago, and his place was filled with an inexperienced man. Many of the mariners who come there have complained to the Pilotage Commission of the appointment of an inexperineced man. It may be that these gentlemen do not see eye to eye with the commission in the matter of politics. But if there is one thing more than another in which a man's politics should not interfere with his job, it is pilotage. A pilot must be an experienced man. He does not get his position, nor his

pay from the Government; his pay comes out of the fees the pilots themselves earn. It seems to me unfair to dismiss a man from such a position even for partisanship. I am not finding fault with the minister, because I know he has no control over that. But I suggest that he point out to the commission that it is more important to have reliable and experienced men to look after the ships coming into our harbours than to have men belonging to one particular party. I know that political friends of the minister of Marine and Fisheries have regretted the dismissal of these men without his knowledge and authority. Steps should be taken so that men who have been engaged in the pilotage business for years should not be disturbed.

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LIB

Daniel Duncan McKenzie

Liberal

Mr. McKENZIE:

I brought this matter

to the notice of the commission before, but there is a little history about it that the minister should know. I have known Sydney harbour intimately for thirty years. For the first ten years of that time there was no such thing as the board of commissioners, and a man went piloting as he went fishing. If he got a steamer to bring in, he got his fee. There was very often a battle royal as to who should reach the vessel first. So the men got together and organized-grit and tory. There was no talk of politics; they were simply a body of men engaged in business. Everybody joined the organization, and, so far as I know, no politics entered into it until this Government came into power. In the fifteen years of liberal rule only one was suspended, and that was on 'the ground that he sold liquor while a pilot, and the board themselves agreed to his dismissal. But twenty-five per cent, perhaps thirty per cent of the pilots have been dismissed since this Government came into power. A man is given to understand that if he is not a tory he is not needed in the pilot business. That is high-handed, it may have been a miner or fisherman who gave up all his time to pilotage twenty-five years ago.

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CON

John Douglas Hazen (Minister of Marine and Fisheries; Minister of the Naval Service)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. HAZEN:

Do they want apprentices there?

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LIB

Daniel Duncan McKenzie

Liberal

Mr. McKENZIE:

Yes, and everyone of

the apprentices have been dismissed as well as the pilots and the authorities had to go out to the ordinary rank and file to get men to put in their places. Five years of apprenticeship is supposed to qualify a man to be a pilot. They had to go out to the farmers and miners and people along the shore and pick up pilots and put them 'in charge of ships of enormous value to bring them into that harbour. That is not business and there is no justification for it.

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CON

John Douglas Hazen (Minister of Marine and Fisheries; Minister of the Naval Service)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. HAZEN:

We have no knowledge of the matter in the department; I shall make inquiry about it. Speaking without having

the facts all before me it seems to me a most unwise thing to dismiss the apprentices who would be pilots in the future. Of course, it may be that there are men acting as pilots who from infirmity of hearing or 'eyesight are no longer fit for the position.

In Quebec they have to undergo an examination in this respect every year and usually a certain number have to drop out.

Pensions of $300 each to pilots, $6,300.

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LIB

Rodolphe Lemieux

Liberal

Mr. LEMIEUX:

I should like to know

if the department intends to act on the report of the Pilotage Commission?

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CON

John Douglas Hazen (Minister of Marine and Fisheries; Minister of the Naval Service)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. HAZEN:

We are already acting on it so far as the recommendations for the Montreal district are concerned. We are practically able ,to act on the recommendations without legislation. In the Montreal district, one of the recommendations is to give larger remuneration to the pilots. We are doing that. Another is that the Montreal office in Quebec should be placed in a different position. There are some regulations about the employment of pilots for special lines. If a man is employed for a special line of ships his name is taken off the tour de role. It was recommended that' a pilot would not have to be taken off the tour de role if a line had a vessel coming up only once a month. There is a provision that two lines having two ships coming once a month will get the services ~ of the same pilot. There are a number of regulations of that sort. The pilotage service of the Montreal district seems to the commission to be very satisfactory and the changes are not drastic or important. With regard to the Quebec district, the changes recommended are more important and it may be that we shall have to have some legislation at another session with regard to that. While the Minister of Marine. has nominally authority over the pilotage, as a matter of fact, he has little authority over the Quebec pilots, what is called the corporation of pilots has power to appoint pilots and arrange everything. The recommendation is that that corporation shall be abolished and the control placed directly in the minister. Then there is a recommendation that the present system of pooling the earnings of all the pilots shall be abolished.

It is thought that this system discourages individual effort on the part of the pilots. They also recommend a change with regard to the system at Father Point by which pilots are placed upon the ships. In the old days the pilots had sailing boats that used to sail up and down the river and they made their farthest point down the river west of Father Point. By arrangement with the Marine Department they agreed to give up the sailing boats and the Department of Marine and Fisheries provided a steamer that would always be

at Father Point to take a pilot out to the vessel. This steamer is the Eureka. The pilots go down and lives in

boarding houses and wait until the ship comes, and they are taken on the Eureka to the ship. They say\ that it is a bad system, that these men are loafing about boarding houses for hours at a time, and they practically put it that there is a danger of their drinking, and that a pilot in this condition is not fit to pilot a ship. They recommend that a steamer be purchased that will be large enough to afford accommodation for the pilots so that they can go down and remain on the ship, under the supervision of an official of the department who will preserve order, and stay on the boat until their services are required.

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LIB

Rodolphe Lemieux

Liberal

Mr. LEMIEUX:

I thank the minister for his clear explanation. Too much care cannot be taken in connection with the organization on a sound basis of the pilotage system. My hon. friend knows that the St. Lawrence, especially last year, has been most unfortunate in view of the numerous accidents that have taken place. We speak very often about the high insurance rates. The rates have gone up of late years on account of such accidents and certainly any action of my right hon. friend to place matters in a proper position is to be highly commended. The Shipping Federation in Montreal and the business community are waiting with anxiety the outcome of this pilotage question which has been a vexeLT question for many years.

Telephonic reporting stations along the St. Lawrence between Montreal and Quebec, $30,000.

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CON

John Douglas Hazen (Minister of Marine and Fisheries; Minister of the Naval Service)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. HAZEN:

The increase of $6,000 includes $3,000 for the salaries of additional clerks, one extra clerk for the Montreal office, a temporary clerk for the Quebec office when occasion demands and an extra night operator on the river will probably be required. It makes allowance also for certain increases of salary to some officers.

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LIB
CON

John Douglas Hazen (Minister of Marine and Fisheries; Minister of the Naval Service)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. HAZEN:

We could not give it up.

The shipping people would rebel if we proposed to do so. As a matter of fact, I think it should be extended.

Marine hospitals, $68,000.

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LIB
CON

John Douglas Hazen (Minister of Marine and Fisheries; Minister of the Naval Service)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. HAZEN:

The policy of the government has been to close these marine hospitals in towns where there are public hospitals. For instance in St. John there was a very fine marine hospital. Some I Mr. HAZBN.

years ago it was closed and an arrangement was made with the commissioners of the public hospital to take all sailors. We paid so much per day or per week, and it lias been found much cheaper for the country and also, with a really good and well equipped hospital, the men got better treatment and care than in a marine hospital. The sailors prefer it. If there is in the town of Yarmouth a thoroughly equipped hospital of that sort to which sailors could be sent it would be in the public interest that an arrangement should be made in Yarmouth similar to that in other cities.

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LIB

Bowman Brown Law

Liberal

Mr. LAW:

The Government owns a

nice property there, the hospital was built only a few years ago and it seems too bad too throw the whole thing away._ Does the port physician attend to sick sailors in the public hospital if they are sent there?

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CON

John Douglas Hazen (Minister of Marine and Fisheries; Minister of the Naval Service)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. HAZEN:

I believe in some cases he does and in others he does not. In some cases they are attended by the regular physician at the hospital. Then the Government pays a larger fee than where their own physician attends the sailors. My hen. friend referred to the building. There was a very nice building in St. John, which was abandoned fifteen or sixteen years ago. The Government leased it at a nominal rent to a public institution, a home .for incurables, and if a similar step were taken in Yarmouth there is probably some public purpose for which the building could be used and the Government, I am sure, would be willing to rent it for such a purpose on almost nominal terms.

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May 23, 1913