March 19, 1912

CANADA SHIPPING ACT.


Bill (No. 143) to amend the Canada Shipping Act (Mr. Hazen) was read the second time and House went into committee thereon.


CON

John Douglas Hazen (Minister of Marine and Fisheries; Minister of the Naval Service)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. HAZEN.

I explained the purpose of this Bill at the time of its introduction. The first of the two clauses which it contains is for the purpose of exempting sailing ships, fitted with ordinary gasolene engines, that are engaged partly in fishing and partly in the transportation of freight, from having to employ certificated masters or mates. Under the existing law these vessels -would be exempt if they were employed solely in fishing, but some of them are engaged for a portion of the year, say for nine months, in fishing and the balance of the year is devoted to carrying freight around the neighbourhood in which the owners live. As the law stands at present these vessels have to have certificated masters and certificated mates. They are operated in most oases by the owner, by the fisherman himself. There are not enough certificated masters and mates, even if the owners were in the position to employ men -so qualified, to serve upon these boats; and in addition to that the employment of such masters and mates would impose a bur-[DOT]den of expense upon the owner that would not be justified, considering the business in which they are engaged. The junior member for Halifax (Mr. A. K. Maclean), when I introduced this Bill, suggested that There would have to be some change in its provisions to show that these vessels should either be engaged in the .coasting trade, or in the deep sea trade. I told my hon. Triend I would look into the matter, and I find that the point raised by him was well taken. So I will ask to amend section one by inserting after the word

ships ' in the sixth line, the words,

engaged in the coastwise trade.' That will meet the objection that was well taken by my hon. friend from Halifax. I therefore move to amend the section in that respect.

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LIB

Frank Oliver

Liberal

Mr. OLIVER.

I am not familiar with the provisions of the Bill. But I gather from what my hon. friend has said that boats propelled by gasolene, not engaged *in fishing at any time, would require to have certificated officers?

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CON

John Douglas Hazen (Minister of Marine and Fisheries; Minister of the Naval Service)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. HAZEN.

Yes.

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LIB

Frank Oliver

Liberal

Mr. OLIVER.

Is it reasonable that while a boat propelled by gasolene which happens to be engaged in fishing, may toe handled by officers not certificated, and boats propelled by the'same means engaged in other callings, should not be relieved from that requirement?

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CON

John Douglas Hazen (Minister of Marine and Fisheries; Minister of the Naval Service)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. HAZEN.

It has been thought not desirable to extend this privilege any further at the present time. There does not -seem to be any hardship -in having this requirement for boats which are regularly engaged in trade as carriers. There is no

complaint at all from the owners of such boats, because those boats, as a rule, are doing a business that enables their owners to employ a certificated master or a certificated mate. This is intended simply as a relief to those persons who are engaged in the fishing industry. It is from the standpoint of the fishermen that the -matter has been dealt with, and it has been thought not desirable to extend the privilege any further at present. If it is found that there is any hardship in applying this requirement to vessels of over 100 tons, propelled by gasolene, which are engaged wholly in trade, and I suppose there are very few of them, the matter will be dealt with at another session; but at the present time we are acting upon what was practically the recommendation of the committee of Marine and Fisheries at the last session of the House. I might say to my hon. friend (Mr. Oliver) that probably at the next session a Bill will be introduced dealing with the Merchant Shipping Act and making a very considerable number of changes in that Act. The subject which my hon. friend has presented could then be dealt with, if it was thought desirable.

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LIB
CON

John Douglas Hazen (Minister of Marine and Fisheries; Minister of the Naval Service)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. HAZEN.

The exemption applies to boats under 100 tons.

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LIB

Frank Oliver

Liberal

Mr. OLIVER.

-Speaking particularly of the Yukon, the navigation of the Yukon river is in the hands of a monopoly. As a matter of fact a certain navigation company has full control of the navigation of that river. There might be some relief to that condition of monopoly in navigation if a small boat, propelled by gasolene, could be operated under the law. As a matter of fact, two years ago a small vessel built for the purpose of competing in traffic on the Yukon river and on its tributaries and upper waters was debarred from operating by the law as it then existed. I do not recall that that boat was propelled by gasolene, but I know that gasolene boats are in operation on the Yukon river, and I think I am safe in saying that the present provision of the law has been used as a means of preventing that kind of competition in carrying, on those streams, that otherwise would have been secured by the public. I would think, therefore, -that it would be advisable to permit of competition in carrying if it can be done without danger to the public.

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CON

John Douglas Hazen (Minister of Marine and Fisheries; Minister of the Naval Service)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. HAZEN.

My attention has no1! been called to the condition of affairs on the Yukon to which my hon. friend refers. The matter is certainly one for very careful consideration. If there is existing on the Yukon river a monopoly sued as my hon. friend has pointed out, and if (he

excepting boats under 100 tons that ar-operated by gasolene, from the necessity of having a certificated officer -would go towards breaking up that monopoly, the matter would certainly seem to be one calling for favouraible consideration. But I would say to my hon. friend that I would not care to amend this Bill, at so late a period in the session, without careful inquiry as to how far-reaching in its effects such a change might be, but the matter will be considered before the amendment of the Merchant Shipping Act next session.

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LIB

Frank Oliver

Liberal

Mr. OLIVEB.

I would like very much for the minister to take up the point that I have raised when he is considering the Bill, because there is an immense river system in the northern part of Canada where there must necessarily be a very moderate development of transportation facilities, and where it is very easy for an aggregation of capital to hold the navigation, and it is a desirable thing that there should be every facility offered for competition.

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LIB

Daniel Duncan McKenzie

Liberal

Mr. McKENZIE.

I would like to ask the minister if he has anything in this Bill to limit or name the time within which these schooners must be engaged in fishing, before they can get the benefits of the exemption. I can point out to the hon. minister where the Bill might be abused, where a schooner engaged in fishing might enjoy privileges which another schooner of the same size would not enjoy, if she were not so engaged. The owner of the former vessel might only devote a week or a fortnight to fishing and yet benefit by the provisions of the Act. I think there should be some provision for a limit of time within which the vessel must be employed in fishing before she could enjoy the benefits. i

i Mr. HAZEN. There is no provision of 'that sort in the Bill. Of course the intention of the Bill is that it shall apply to vessels that are bona fide engaged in fishing operations, or whose principal business is fishing. I may say to my hon. friend '(Mr. McKenzie) that the law has not been observed in the past. As a matter of fact there have been violations going on all the time, and it is thought not desirable to have a law on the statute books which has been so violated, and which it is impossible to enforce. It is thought better, therefore, to 'have some such provision as the Bill contains so as to make the practice legal. The amendment was asked for by a very largely signed petition from people living chiefly in the province from which my hon. friend comes. The signatures are of people in different parts of Nova Scotia, such as Westport, Tiverton. Little River, Sandy Cove and so on, small places along the coast of that province. I think good will Mr. HAZEN.

result from passing the Bill in its present form. If it is found that some amendment is necessary to guard against what my hon. fr.iend suggests, it can be done at another session of the House. It is too late now at this hour of the session to consider any changes.

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LIB

Frank Oliver

Liberal

Mr. OLIVER.

What I said had reference to gasolene boats. I think it would be well for the minister, however, to take into consideration some relief with respect to the requirements, even as regards steam propelled boats of small size, for the reason that I have mentioned.

On section 2.

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CON

John Douglas Hazen (Minister of Marine and Fisheries; Minister of the Naval Service)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. HAZEN.

The second section, I pointed out to the House, was for the purpose of remedying what I think is a small matter, but which seems to be a hardship. At the present time if a master, a mate, or a second mate loses his certificate, and evidence of that is furnished to the Department of Marine and Fisheries, another certificate is granted, but in order to get that other certificate, which practically costs the department or the government nothing, he has to pay one-half of what it costs to obtain his original certificate. For instance, in the case of a master I think the original cost is $15, and for getting another certificate he has to pay $7.50. It has been felt for a long while that this was rather a burdensome fee to exact from men whose incomes are not very large, and therefore it is provided that when a man proves to the satisfaction of the minister that he has without fault on his part, lost or been deprived of any certificate, the minister may, upon such terms and conditions as he deems fit, cause a copy or duplicate of the original certificate to 'be made out and certified as aforesaid and delivered to such master, or mate, or second mate, as the case may be. The minister can fix what he considers a fair and reasonable fee, and my disposition would be to fix that fee at the nominal sum of one dollar.

Bill reported as amended, read a third time and passed.

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CANADIAN NORTHERN ALBERTA RAILWAY.


Bill (No. 144) respecting aid towards the construction of the Canadian Northern Alberta railway-Mr. White (Leeds)-read a second time and House went into committee thereon.


CON

William Thomas White (Minister of Finance and Receiver General)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. WHITE (Leeds).

When the resolutions upon which this Bill is founded were under consideration by the committee, I made a rather full statement as to the necessity for the legislation, which statement

was concurred in by the hon. member for South Renfrew (Mr. Graham). I think it unnecessary to add anything to what I stated on that occasion, so far as giving [DOT]information to the House is concerned. I therefore suggest that we take up the Bill clause by clause.

Bill reported, read the third time and passed.

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YUKON ACT AMENDMENT.


Bill (No. 123) to amend the Yukon Act (Mr. Doherty) was read the second time and House went into committee thereon. On section 11___Territorial court.


March 19, 1912