March 4, 1912

LIB

Frank Oliver

Liberal

Mr. OLIVER.

I say that over the greater portion of that area northeast of Lake Winnipeg the provincial government exercises no more jurisdiction than it does over the Congo Free State.

Topic:   SUPPLY OF CEMENT TO DEPARTMENT OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.
Subtopic:   EXTENSION OF BOUNDARIES- MANITOBA.
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CON

George Henry Bradbury

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BRADBURY.

It is a very small area.

Topic:   SUPPLY OF CEMENT TO DEPARTMENT OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.
Subtopic:   EXTENSION OF BOUNDARIES- MANITOBA.
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LIB

Frank Oliver

Liberal

Mr. OLIVER.

It is not a small area. My hon. friend can see on the map that this is not a small area. This is a statement of fact, and I want to compare that condition with that of Saskatchewan which is effectively occupied by population requiring the administration of the provincial government from the boundary line to a point north of Prince Albert, a distance of not less than 300 miles. There is more territory at present effectively occupied in the province of Saskatchewan than the total present area of Manitoba. Everybody knows that. What is true of Saskatchewan is true in a still greater degrge of Alberta. There is a much greater area in Alberta effectively occupied and requiring provincial expenditure and administration than there is in the whole province of Manitoba. Yet, from the Dominion treasury the prov-

inces of Alberta and Saskatchewan are to get only as much as the province of Manitoba is to get under this arrangement. We do not complain of that if it is the arrangement that exists because of having been entered into years ago, and it is considered not desirable to disturb it, but when this government undertakes to disturb tint arrangement and disturb it in the name of justice and fair play we ask for justice and fair-play all round. Let it be remembered, Mr. Speaker, that in the province of Manitoba between one-fourth and one-third of the population is in the city of Winnipeg. The cost of provincial administration in the city of Winnipeg is trifling compared with the cost of administration in connection with a like population in the agricultural portions of the country. It is a fact that outside the city of Winnipeg the province of Manitoba has not increased seriously in population in the past few years, or at any rate, has not increased in comparison with Saskatchewan and Alberta. Its increase is in the city of Winnipeg. Does this government tell us that, because of an increase in population in the city of Winnipeg, where there is no practical increase in cost to the provincial government in the matter of administration, the province of Manitoba should have an increased allowance on debt account when the provinces of Saskatchewan and Alberta, whose cost of administration is increased stupendously by a similar increase of population, should have no consideration on debt account? If there ie to be justice and fair-play in this matter we ask for justice and fair-play. We are prepared to accede to an arrangement for ian increased debt allowance to the other western provinces including British Columbia, having regard to the physical conditions which lay immeasurably heavier burdens upon the administration in those provinces than are laid upon Manitoba, or will be laid upon that province by this addition of territory.

In regard to the increased subsidy on land account, there are matters that have to be considered in that connection that are aside from and, in my judgment, far above in importance the mere matter of the amount of money that is to be paid.

First of all, let us clear away some little misapprehension which I think exists as to the amount of increase of subsidy on land account that the province of Manitoba is to receive. At present the subsidy of the province, (as shown in the estimates this year) is $833,838, but there must be added to that the amount that is derived by the province from the sale of swamp an'd university lands, which, according to the statement of the Minister of Finance, is $149,230, and this brings the total amount that the province of Manitoba is to-day realizing from subsid-Mr. OLIVER.

ies received from this Dominion to $983,068. Under the arrangement proposed by the Bill the province will have $190,000 for civil government, $364,491 per capita, $562,500 on land account, and $381,584 on debt account, a total of $1,498,575, against $983,068 that it is now receiving, or a difference of $515,507. But let me remind the House that under the arrangement that was offered to Manitoba by the Liberal government, there was to be an annual payment of $200,000, so that if that is deducted, the advantage of cash that comes to the province of Manitoba on land account over and above what would have come to the province under the offer made by the Liberal government is, $315,507. That is, the province is better off in cash by reason of this arrangement over and above what it would have received, had the offer of the late Liberal government been accepted, by $315,507, but it is worse off by eight million acres of swamp land, according to the estimate given by the Minister of Finance.

Topic:   SUPPLY OF CEMENT TO DEPARTMENT OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.
Subtopic:   EXTENSION OF BOUNDARIES- MANITOBA.
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CON

William Henry Sharpe

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. SHARPE (Lisgar).

Did the late government offer $200,000 annually?

Topic:   SUPPLY OF CEMENT TO DEPARTMENT OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.
Subtopic:   EXTENSION OF BOUNDARIES- MANITOBA.
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LIB

Frank Oliver

Liberal

Mr. OLIVER.

Yes. I cannot give the exact date, but the offer was made some time last spring. I suppose my hon. friend (Mr. Sharpe) does not suggest that no such offer was made.

Topic:   SUPPLY OF CEMENT TO DEPARTMENT OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.
Subtopic:   EXTENSION OF BOUNDARIES- MANITOBA.
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CON

William Henry Sharpe

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. SHARPE (Lisgar).

Well, I never heard of it.

Topic:   SUPPLY OF CEMENT TO DEPARTMENT OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.
Subtopic:   EXTENSION OF BOUNDARIES- MANITOBA.
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LIB

Frank Oliver

Liberal

Mr. OLIVER.

My hon. friend is not well-informed in matters concerning his province.

Topic:   SUPPLY OF CEMENT TO DEPARTMENT OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.
Subtopic:   EXTENSION OF BOUNDARIES- MANITOBA.
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CON

William Henry Sharpe

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. SHARPE (Lisgar).

The only offer I ever heard of was one of ten thousand per year.

Topic:   SUPPLY OF CEMENT TO DEPARTMENT OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.
Subtopic:   EXTENSION OF BOUNDARIES- MANITOBA.
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LIB

Frank Oliver

Liberal

Mr. OLIVER.

My hon. friend is behind the lighthouse altogether. The proposition made by the late government was discussed in the legislature of Manitoba and was rejected there, so that it is a matter of record. The condition now is: that this offer by the present government is $315,000 better in cash and eight million acres worse in swamp lands than the offer of the Liberai government. I think it will take all the gymnastic ability-I mean gymnastic ability in figures-of the Minister of Finance to explain how $315,000 in cash each year is better for the province than an asset of eight million acres of land, some 880,000 acres of which have been sold at a net profit to the province as we are informed, of $2,684,601.

Topic:   SUPPLY OF CEMENT TO DEPARTMENT OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.
Subtopic:   EXTENSION OF BOUNDARIES- MANITOBA.
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CON

John Hampden Burnham

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BURNHAM.

May I ask a question?

Topic:   SUPPLY OF CEMENT TO DEPARTMENT OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.
Subtopic:   EXTENSION OF BOUNDARIES- MANITOBA.
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LIB

Frank Oliver

Liberal

Mr. OLIVER.

Certainly.

Topic:   SUPPLY OF CEMENT TO DEPARTMENT OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.
Subtopic:   EXTENSION OF BOUNDARIES- MANITOBA.
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CON

John Hampden Burnham

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BURNHAM.

Are there any other objections to this Bill than the financial and geographical?

Topic:   SUPPLY OF CEMENT TO DEPARTMENT OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.
Subtopic:   EXTENSION OF BOUNDARIES- MANITOBA.
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LIB

Frank Oliver

Liberal

Mr. OLIVER.

My hon. friend (Mr. Burnham) will have to think that out for himself; I am not making any other objection just now. I was trying to show that it will require all the ability of our friend the Minister of Finance to prove to the people of Manitoba, or of this country, or to prove to this House how the province gains financially by exchanging $350,000 a year in cash for eight million acres of land which, on his own showing, appears to be worth three dollars per acre or twenty-four million dollars and twenty-four million dollars at five per cent interest would amount to $1,200,000 a year against the $315,000 cash which this! government) offers. That is how this bargain figures out now as compared with the offer made by 'the Liberal government less than a year ago.

Topic:   SUPPLY OF CEMENT TO DEPARTMENT OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.
Subtopic:   EXTENSION OF BOUNDARIES- MANITOBA.
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CON

William Thomas White (Minister of Finance and Receiver General)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. WHITE (Leeds).

Where does my hon. friend (Mr. Oliver) get the three dollars an acre?

Topic:   SUPPLY OF CEMENT TO DEPARTMENT OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.
Subtopic:   EXTENSION OF BOUNDARIES- MANITOBA.
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LIB

Frank Oliver

Liberal

Mr. OLIVER.

From the statement of my hon. friend (Mr. White) in the House the other day. [DOT]

Topic:   SUPPLY OF CEMENT TO DEPARTMENT OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.
Subtopic:   EXTENSION OF BOUNDARIES- MANITOBA.
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CON

William Thomas White (Minister of Finance and Receiver General)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. WHITE (Leeds).

The statement I made in the House was not my statement but the statement of Mr. Young, chief geographer, and I said so. The statement was :

The unsurveyed area in the province is estimated at 12,900,000 acres. This is largely unexplored. It is thought that thirty per cent. (4,870,000 acres), may be swamp. This land will be of considerably less value than the swamp lands already referred to.

My hon. friend (Mr. Oliver) may put any price he likes on that land, but I do not want him to give the price he mentions as coming from me.

Topic:   SUPPLY OF CEMENT TO DEPARTMENT OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.
Subtopic:   EXTENSION OF BOUNDARIES- MANITOBA.
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LIB

Frank Oliver

Liberal

Mr. OLIVER.

All right. The particular statement of my hon. friend (Mr. White) to which I was alluding, reads as follows on page 3926 of ' Hansard ':

The total acreage sold is stated to have been 838,484-16 acres; tihe amount received for them is $3,137,399.30. Dominion deductions from provincial subsidy with respect to surveys of swamp lands, &c., amount to $211,942.95; provincial expenditure on account of swamp lands, proportionate estimate $240,854.66. These two make a total of $452,797.55 leaving the net amount received by the province from swamp lands at $2,684,601.75. Five per cent, of this amount is $134,230.08, which I deduct, as I have previously explained. That would give an average of about $3 an acre for the swamp lands already sold by Manitoba.

Topic:   SUPPLY OF CEMENT TO DEPARTMENT OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.
Subtopic:   EXTENSION OF BOUNDARIES- MANITOBA.
Permalink
CON

William Thomas White (Minister of Finance and Receiver General)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. WHITE (Leeds).

I don't like to interrupt my hon. friend hut I am sure he wants to be fair.

I stated that with regard to some of the lands already sold. That is a matter of record. These other items with regard to the balance are estimates of Mr. Young's.

I do not know the value. My hon. friend may put any value he decides on them, but do not let him quote me in connection with it because I do not know their value.

Topic:   SUPPLY OF CEMENT TO DEPARTMENT OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.
Subtopic:   EXTENSION OF BOUNDARIES- MANITOBA.
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LIB

Frank Oliver

Liberal

Mr. OLIVER.

It must be admitted that the value of these swamp lands is a matter of estimate. The, fact is that of this large area of upwards of two million acres which was in the hands of the province of Manitoba beginning some time in 1885, and coming down to the present time the portions sold from time to time, realised an average of $3 an acre. That is established. It must surely be admitted that with the appreciation in the value of ianas which has taken place within the last few years that the price of $3 an acre received during the past 20 years, was below what the land would now realize.

I find in the report of the Department of Provincial Lands of Manitoba, for the year ending December 31, 1910, a statement in regard to the value of these lands.

Land sales, $73,729.35. There were sold during the year parcels of land representing 142,535-16 acres for the sum of $737,395.26. The prices obtained ranged from $3 to $19 per acre, and the average was $5.17 per acre. The progressive policy of the government of the province in draining, from time to time, largo areas of swamp lands, is responsible largely for the splendid revenue of the department, as lands which, prior to being included in a drainage district, were practically unsaleable, and were held fit $3 and $4 per acre, are now selling at from $6 to $12 per acre. In view of the steady demand for these reclaimed lands, the different municipalities wheiein they are located are benefited to a very considerable extent owing to their being able to collect taxes from the date of sale on hitherto non-a-sseseaible lands.

Topic:   SUPPLY OF CEMENT TO DEPARTMENT OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.
Subtopic:   EXTENSION OF BOUNDARIES- MANITOBA.
Permalink
CON

George Henry Bradbury

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BRADBURY.

Does the hon. gentleman realize what it costs to drain these lands?

Topic:   SUPPLY OF CEMENT TO DEPARTMENT OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.
Subtopic:   EXTENSION OF BOUNDARIES- MANITOBA.
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March 4, 1912