February 6, 1912

CON

George Eulas Foster (Minister of Trade and Commerce)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. FOSTER (North Toronto).

In reference to section 107, there is, as far -as I have understood, -a pretty unanimous opinion that -a -change -should be made in the denomination -of -these grades, that instead of having -the word ' Manitoba. ' in the -grades, the reading should be changed to ' Can-a-d-a hard-.' ' Ma-nito-ba hard wheat ' was the den-omin-ation, I suippos-e, which was given when Manitoba was the grain

grower of the west, but Manitoba is no longer the only grain grower of the west. Saskatchewan and Alberta, notably the fanner, are increasing by leaps and bounds in their production of grain. The idea, then, that I wish to present to the House is that the time has come when ' Manitoba ' as a denomination for hard wheat should give way to a broader name, and the name that is suggested is the word ' Canada.' There is no reason that I can see on general principles why hard wheat raised anywhere in Canada should not be hard wheat and should not get the grade, or that the name of a section should prevail rather than the name of a whole country. The grade of the wheat essentially will be exactly the same. It will be simply a change of name, and it would seem as though it would give greater prominence to the country, that is to the whole country, Canada, and give greater backing to the grade itself by having the denomination of the whole country than to confine it to a scot-ion which is now far outstripped by the adjoining sections and by the whole of Canada in the production ol this grade.

The only objection which could be urged against it-and I inquired particularly of dealers and millers-was this: That when you give a distinctive name to a grade it becomes known by that name on the market, and sometimes it is known as a grade even after all the significance in the name itself has passed away. Those interested in the production and milling of grain, who have conferred with me, are of the opinion that that would not militate against the market currency of the wheat in this case. If there was any chance that it would, it could be cured in the first years of its currency by putting in brackets in our certificates after the word ' Canada,' the word ' Manitoba,' to show that ' Canada Hard Wheat ' took the place of the former name, and was identical with the Manitoba Hard Wheat, and also by regulating that it should not come into effect until the first of September, 1912. With these safeguards it is generally agreed that no ill consequence would follow, and it is an idea which all seem to catch that it would be -a good thing to give the general name of the country to the wheat

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CON

Frederick Laurence Schaffner

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. SCHAFFNER.

I do not think it would be right for me to let that word ' Manitoba ' be dropped without a kick. Even the kind hearted Minister of Trade and Commerce feels there will be a difficulty in dropping the name, and he is quite willing that the word ' Manitoba ' should be placed in brackets. Well, I don't like that either. Manitoba has been the pioneer province in wheat growing in this country, and it is Manitoba that has produced the high grade of wheat which Mr. FOSTER (N. Toronto).

has earned for itself a reputation in all the markets of the world, so that, in my opinion the word ' Manitoba ' should stand out boldly. I do not think it is fair to drop the word ' Manitoba,' even in view of the softening down proposition with which the Minister of Trade and Commerce has connected his proposal.

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LIB
CON

Frederick Laurence Schaffner

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. SCHAFFNER.

1 thought it my duty to make that kick anyway.

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LIB

Frank Oliver

Liberal

Mr. OLIVER.

At the same time it is unfair that the province of Manitoba should nave the credit of the enormous quantity of hard wheat that is grown in the provinces of Alberta and Saskatchewan. Aside from that, I think the argument placed before the committee by thie Minister of Trade and Commerce is certainly very good. There is, however, a difficulty that properly arises in carrying the theory a step further, as I would like to see it carried if it can be done. I find that there are five definitions given to grain; there is ' Manitoba ' for spring wheat, ' Alberta ' for fall or winter wheat, ' Canadian Western ' for oats, ' Northwestern Manitoba ' for flax, and I think there is ' Manitoba ' for barley. I would like very much to see some definition adopted that would apply to all of the different classes of grain that are raised in western Canada, and for the same reason, in regard at any rate to oats, and I believe to barley, as in the case of wheat, namely, that the quality raised in the west is -superior to that raised in the remainder of the country. I am afraid that the word ' Canada/ if applied to all these other grains, would not be suitable. In the case of wheat the definition is made accurate and satisfactory by using the words ' Canada Hard Wheat ', if the definition is restricted to wheat, but if you carry the word ' Canada ' into oats and barley it does not apply as well. I would respectfully suggest that if it would be possible to secure a short and satisfactory word that would be distinctive, and that could be applied to all the different classes of grain raised in the prairie west as compared with the grain raised in the rest of the country it would be desirable to make the change. For my own part, I would think that if the word ' Northern ' were used to -distinguish all the different classes of grain raised in the prairie west it would perhaps be as good a general definition as could be given. Some people are delicate about the use of the word ' Northern ' but, as a matter of fact, nine-tenths of our wheat to-day is sold as ' Northern ' and the word ' Northern ' has a more generally accepted significance in regard to our wheat to-day than has either the word ' Manitoba ' or the word ' Hard.' I would suggest, with

all deference, merely for the consideration of the committee, that if we use the words ' Northern Hard ' to apply to wheat and the word ' Northern ' to apply to the barley, oats and flax, grown on the western prairies, they would constitute a satisfactory and sufficient distinguishment from the grain raised in other parts of Canada, and there would be notice to everyone dealing in the grain as to the kind of grain it was, and as to the part of the country it came from.

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CON

William D. Staples

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. STAPLES.

Like the hon. member for Souris (Mr. Schaffner) I am jealous of the word ' Manitoba The hon. member for Edmonton (Mr. Oliver) has claimed for the province of Alberta the credit of growing the best ' Alberta Red Winter Wheat ', but I can tell the hon. gentleman that we can produce Red Winter Wheat in the province of Manitoba just as successfully as they do in the province of Alberta.

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LIB
CON

William D. Staples

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. STAPLES.

Therefore, if you are going to drop the word ' Manitoba ' from ' Spring Wheat ', I think you will have to drop the name ' Alberta ' in order to compensate for the loss we are having in the ' Alberta Fall Wheat '.

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LIB
CON

William D. Staples

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. STAPLES.

The name ' Manitoba ' has become famous throughout the world, and while I do not like to see it dropped I think perhaps it could be worked out on the lines I have suggested. There is, of course, the danger of there being some commercial loss by dropping the name ' Manitoba ', but if there is due notice given in the manner the minister has stated, probably the loss may be minimized. Section 105 of the Act provides for the eastern grades, and section 107 for the western division. Now, if you call the eastern grades 1, 2 and 3 spring wheat there might be some conflict in that. I suppose the term ' Spring ' is used instead of the term ' Hard ', and there are two divisions to be considered there.

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LIB

Frank Oliver

Liberal

Mr. OLIVER.

That is the necessity of giving a distinctive name to the grain raised in the western division if it is to have credit for its special character.

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CON
LIB

James Alexander Robb

Liberal

Mr. ROBB.

As an easterner I am prepared to support the Manitoba members in their defence of the word ' Manitoba.' It seems to me that if we make this change we shall be doing something that will disturb trade conditions in regard to both wheat and flour. We have built up in this country and on the Liverpool market

a reputation for Manitoba wheat and Manitoba flour that is worth a great deal to every grower of and every dealer in western wheat. On the Liverpool market Manitoba wheat is generally quoted a little higher, for instance, than Duluth wheat; and in the United States hard wheat belt people do not confine themselves to a general term such as we propose to introduce. For instance, hard wheat is generally spoken of as Duluth wheat, while hard wheat flour is spoken of as Minnesota flour. These are trade marks which they have built up. In the same way we have built up the trade mark of Manitoba flour and Manitoba wheat on the Liverpool market, and I think the minister should hesitate before introducing any legislation that will disturb these conditions.

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CON

Edmund Boyd Osler

Conservative (1867-1942)

Sir EDMUND OSLER.

In the exportation of flour and wheat the brand or trade mark is often much more valuable in sentiment than it is in reality, and it might be rather risky to make a change.

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LIB

John Gillanders Turriff

Liberal

Mr. TURRIFF.

I think the change could be fairly made with the safeguards surrounding it which the Minister of Trade and Commerce suggests. There is no doubt that the name ' Manitoba ' having been used for a number of years, some little inconvenience would be caused in changing it. When the name was adopted, the great bulk of western wheat was grown in Manitoba; but at present there is a great deal more wheat grown in Saskatchewan than in Manitoba, and in the future there will be many times more. Take the case of flax. All our flax is sold under the names ' No. 1 Northwestern Manitoba,' and ' No.

1 Manitoba Flaxseed,' although Saskatchewan grows 90 per cent of all the flax grown in the whole Dominion; and naturally the people of Saskatchewan who produce this flax do not want it to be called by the name of another province. The suggestion made by the hon. member for Edmonton strikes me as a very good one. I think we should cut out the names Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta altogether, and use instead one name that would be fairly distinctive of the whole western country, surrounding the change with the precautions suggested by the minister. If this is done,

I do not think any loss will be suffered by the producer, the miller or the exporter.

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CON

George Eulas Foster (Minister of Trade and Commerce)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. FOSTER (North Toronto).

I do not-want to dictate at all, not being an expert.

I just gave the House my own views as gathered from consideration of the subject, The Act we have had up to the present time is called the Manitoba Grain Acit. We are calling this one the Canada Grain Act, because it embraces all parts of our country. _ The fact that Manitoba flour and Manitoba No. 1 hard wheat have a prece-

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dence in the English market is not because the name is ' Manitoba/ but because of the hardness and the quality of the wheat. If it had happened to be called ' Saskatchewan Hard/ it would have had the same precedence, although it might have aroused some prejudice in the minds of those who had to use the term because of its largeness and the difficulty of spelling it. However, if we restricted all our Canadian wheat to the name Manitoba on the markets of London , Liverpool, Berlin and Hamburg, the idea of Canada's productive power would be restricted, whereas the word ' Canada,' would lend itself to the idea of extension and expansion. The buyer, the newspaper reader, and everybody else would say, why, this is Canadian wheat, so that the quality of the wheat would be immediately transferred to the country itself, which would be a great gain. Now that Manitoba is about to pass from the chrysalis stage of a postage-stamp province to one with large national boundaries, it will be able to appreciate the idea of largeness, and I think it would be a graceful act on the part of my two friends here to kick a little, but not to kick too hard, against the extension of the name. As a representative of the small province of Ontario, which also grows wheat, I have a little bit of an objection to having all the wheat of that province and of Canada generally, described by the name of one section. However, with the two restrictions of having the change coming into force in September, 1912, and indicating by a hyphen what the name was under the old nomenclature, I do not see how there would be any loss; and that is the expression of opinion of the Dominion Millers' Association, which had its committees here, and the Board of Trade of the city of Toronto, as well as those who raised the wheat. I would, therefore, move that the word ' Canada ' be substituted for the word ' Manitoba,' in the 17th line.

Mr. SCHAFFNER, Does eastern Canada grow hard wheat?

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CON

George Eulas Foster (Minister of Trade and Commerce)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. FOSTER (North Toronto).

I do not know what its possibilities may be when we get up to the Hudson Bay territory.

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CON

William D. Staples

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. STAPLES.

As we have been letting other sections of the Bill stand, I do not think it would be any harm to let this section stand, and we may be able to get even a better name than the one the Minister has suggested. When the proposal goes out to the public generally, I think he will find considerable opposition to it, and it is fair that before we enact legislation the public should have an opportunity to speak.

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CON

George Eulas Foster (Minister of Trade and Commerce)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. FOSTER (North Toronto).

If my hon friend would rather have the section stand for a little more cogitation, I have no objection.

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CON

George Eulas Foster (Minister of Trade and Commerce)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. FOSTER (N. Toronto).

Section allowed to stand.

On section 110,-standard samples United States grain.

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February 6, 1912