January 31, 1912

LIB

Wilfrid Laurier (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Liberal

Sir WILFRID LAURIER.

I am not aware that anybody resigned his seat in his favour. There was a vacancy, and, therefore, it was an open fight. We are here to fight one another. Let me say again to my hon. friend that he may oppose the election of Mr. Graham if he wants to do so; but what I complain of is that he will not allow us to have an election. He can fight !Mr. Graham if he chooses; that is liis own business, I have nothing to say as to that. It might

be more graceful to allow him to be elected by acclamation; but we do not ask for any courtesy or any favour. We simply ask the government to play the game fair, and that is what we are entitled to. But my hon. friend says there are some old lists which were not in force. It has been shown by my hon. friend from Essex that in the province of Ontario there aTe lists available all the time.

Topic:   THE WRIT FOR SOUTH RENFREW.
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CON

Robert Laird Borden (Prime Minister; President of the Privy Council)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BORDEN.

Then why did the right hon. gentleman desire to introduce legislation in 1908 to make new lists, because there were others not more than a year old prepared for the province of Ontario?

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LIB

Wilfrid Laurier (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Liberal

Sir WILFRID LAURIER.

That was not for the old province of Ontario, it was for the unorganized districts. There are no lists m the unorganized districts, but in the organized districts there are lists all the time available. If they are more than sixty days old they are not in force.

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CON

Robert Laird Borden (Prime Minister; President of the Privy Council)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BORDEN.

But there were lists in the unorganized districts.

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LIB
CON

Robert Laird Borden (Prime Minister; President of the Privy Council)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BORDEN.

1 beg the hon. gentleman's pardon, there were lists," they were about a year old, but my right hon. friend thought they would not do.

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LIB

Wilfrid Laurier (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Liberal

Sir WILFRID LAURIER.

That is the very ground which is taken by the hon. gentleman to-day, that the lists are old. All the lists at present available in the riding of South Renfrew were revised in the month of October, and the month of September. On the 4th of December, when the local elections took place, the only new lists were those revised in September in the townships of Brougham, McNab and in Renfrew. These were in force, all the others were not in force, and the election took place, therefore, upon the old lists. If the arguments of my hon. friend were to be taken seriously, there would be no election at all in the province of Ontario, because at the present time the lists are all old, and there are no new lists for this year. I am sorry to see that my hon. friend has taken that position. But if he will play the game fair, he will give us an opportunity of meeting him in South Renfrew. Once more I repeat that if the government followed the advice of their own friends there would be no opposition to Mr. Graham's election in South Renfrew. But if there is an election, and it is for the government to say whether there shall be one or not, we are ready for it. It is the duty of the government to issue the writ immediately. When I called the attention of my right hon. friend the other day to this matter he said it was under delibera-

tion. What have they to deliberate upon? It is a simple ministerial duty to issue the writ, and if my right hon. friend had been true to himself he would have issued the writ long ere this.

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CON

John Dowsley Reid (Minister of Customs)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Hon. J. D. REID (Minister of Customs).

I wish to say a few words on this matter, since my name has been mentioned by the hon. gentleman who has moved this motion (Mr. Clarke, Essex). I see that the right hon. leader of the opposition is very wrathy over this matter. I can understand that he should be wrathy; in fact, he has not got over the result of September 21. On that day, many members of his government went down to defeat, Mr. Graham was one of them, he was rejected by the electors of Brock-ville.

Now, the right hon. leader of the opposition appeals for fair-play in this case. We want fair-play too, and the electors of South Renfrew want fair-play. I would like to know if the electors of South Renfrew shall have a right to say who shall represent that constituency or not. In this ease the right hon. gentleman, through Mr. Low, decides that Mr. Graham shall represent that constituency without giving them an opportunity of saying whether he shall or not. A deal was made through Mr. Low. I suppose that the right hon. gentleman said to Mr. Low: You resign and Mr. Graham must represent that constituency whether the electors want him or not. There was no convention called in order to give them the right to say whether he should be the choice of the Liberal party. Then, in addition to that, Mr. Low was elected on September 21, to represent South Renfrew. We did not ask him to resign; he might have continued representing the constituency. The people supposed that he was qualified to represent the constituency, and, therefore, why did he resign? He was told before he resigned that he should not have resigned at that time. It was pointed out to him that there were hundreds of men up in the woods, who were present at the election of September 21, and who would be put to the expense of coming back home to poll their votes if he resigned at that particular time. Surely these people should be taken into consideration by the leader of the opposition, and those behind him who seem bound to take advantage of the absence of these people, and try and force an election on, and perhaps elect Mr. Graham. I feel that the people of South Renfrew should have an opportunity of saying whether Mr. Graham or any other person should represent the constituency, but at the same time I believe that the game should be fairly played, and that the election should take place on the latest list. By waiting Sir WILFRID LATJRIER.

a short time we can get this list. The leader of the opposition is bound to try and force this election on the list oi 1910 when he knows that hundreds of men are out of the constituency and cannot cast their votes if it is held under tnat list. He also knows that there are hundreds of men not on the list of 1910, but who have been residing in the constituency during the past two years, who will not have a vote if the election is held as the right hon. gentleman desires it to be. These people's names will appear on the very latest list, and in addition, the men who are away will be back by the 1st of March, and have an opportunity of polling their votes. The right hon. gentleman haa it in his power to keep Mr. Low here or to open the constituency. I do not want South Renfrew to be unrepresented any longer than is absolutely necessary, but I want to see that the people of that constituency who are absent shall have the right to vote, and not be disfranchised. The right hon. leader of the opposition quotes Sir John A. Macdonald's action as a precedent. He is very late in following in the footsteps of Sir John A. Macdonald. During the whole time that he was leader of the government he never followed that great leader -not in any one case. He cannot give one instance where he followed the example of Sir John A. Macdonald. The government have no desire to oppose the election in South Renfrew any longer than is necessary in order to get a vote on the latest list. We do not fear the result. Mr. Graham will likelv be allowed to go back to Brockville again the same as he did after the election of September 21. The leader of the opposition wants to rush this matter through in the hope that a vote will be taken in such a way as to secure Mr. Graham's election. I do not think he expects him to be elected. The hon. ex-Minister of Marine and Fisheries (Mr. Lemieux) went up to Eganville and threw up his hands because he said: If you do not take him here we are going totake him down in Quebec and give hima seat. The ex-minister is quoted ina newspaper, and the other day he

quoted an item in a newspaner -with regard to myself and tried to make out that it, was true. I came to the conclusion that the leader of the opposition was holding Quebec east and sitting for two seats in this House in order to give Mr. Graham a seat in Quebec east. That must have been the reason because, otherwise, the hon. exMinister of Marine and Fisheries (Mr. Lemitux) would not have made that statement. The leader of the opposition is trying to insinuate that we are withholding the election for some reason. I have felt that we should not go into the election just at this moment, or until we could get

the list in proper shape, or the latest list.

I would like to see it held on the latest list if possible. I would like to see these men given an opportunity of coming down from the woods and also that those on the latest list should be able to vote at this election if an election is to be held. The candidates are out now and there is no doubt of an election being held. It is not a very long time and I do not think it is unreasonable that a sufficient delay for this purpose should take place. Therefore, I do not think that the government are entitled to censure in any way for the very few days that have elapsed since the seat became vacant.

Topic:   THE WRIT FOR SOUTH RENFREW.
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LIB

Frank Broadstreet Carvell

Liberal

Mr. F. B. CARVELL (Carleton, N. B.).

Mr. Speaker, I only want to refer to one statement made by the right hon. leader of the government (Mr. Borden) and that is the statement made to the effect that Mr. Low had drawn his indemnity to the end of December. It must have been made for one of two reasons, either to try to make the people of the country believe that Mr. Low did not resign on the 7th of December, or for the purpose of the statement being used in the coming by-election to the prejudice of Mr. Graham because he is being supported by Mr. Low. I want to point out that I fear the right hon. gentleman has not taken the trouble to look up the law upon the subject. Mr. Low did exactly what probably 90 per cent of the members of this House do. He received a cheque on the 7th or 8th of December for his indemnity for the month of December. I do not know by what authority these cheques are issued because by section 34 of chapter 10 of the Senate and House of Commons Act it is provided that

The said allowance may be paid on the last day of each month, to the extent of $10 for each day's attendance, but the remainder shall be retained by the clerk or accountant of the proper House, until the close of the session, when the final payment shall be made.

By the courtesy of the officials in_ some way, I presume, these cheques were issued on the 7th or 8th day of December. We all know that before a member can receive his indemnity he makes a declaration that, * I have been in my place in the House for the time during which the House has been in session with the exception of so many days a certain number of days when I was ill within ten miles of the city of Ottawa.' Mr. Low would make the same declaration which every other member of this House made and section 35, subsection 2 provides what are the days of attendance in arriving at the computation.

Each day dur:ng the session on which there has been no sitting of such House in consequence of its having adjourned over such day, *or on which the member is in the place where

the session is held but is by reason of his illness unable to attend any such sitting as aforesaid, shall be reckoned as a day of attendance at such session, for the purposes of the indemnity.

Therefore, when Mr. Low made the declaration on the 8th of December that the law required him to make, the accountant of the House issued his cheque automatically and Mr. Low was absolutely entitled to it. I think that the right hon. leader of this House is getting down pretty small when he makes a statement of that kind for the purpose of making campaign material in the coming by-election!

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CON

Robert Laird Borden (Prime Minister; President of the Privy Council)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BORDEN.

The statement I made was absolutely accurate. I had it verified and I do not know' what my hon. friend makes out of it. Does he say that the county w'as not represented during that period?

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LIB

Frank Broadstreet Carvell

Liberal

Mr. CARVELL.

No, I say it is pretty small politics for the Prime Minister of Canada to play.

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CON

Robert Laird Borden (Prime Minister; President of the Privy Council)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BORDEN.

I can only say that I regard a remark of that kind, coming as it does from my hon. friend, as the highest compliment I could get.

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LIB

Charles Murphy

Liberal

Hon. CHARLES MURPHY (Russell).

Before this motion is put, I also desire to draw attention to the continued practice of the right hon. the leader of the government (Mr. Borden) in defending the course which the government has taken in this case by resorting to the tu quoque argument. In order that this government may do something original, may get some small measure of policy of its own before the country, I would suggest that the time of the House might be saved if a certain space of time were allotted on some set day in which all these tu quoques could be set forth and then from that time forward we cculd hear something original from the government, something that they have done themselves.

The argument advanced by the right hon. the leader of the government (Mr. .Borden) as to Mr. Low having drawn his sessional indemnity on the 7th of December as an argument for the writ not being issued, is, I submit, completely negatived by the fact that you, Sir, issued your warrant on the 7th of December, declaring that there was a vacancy and addressing it to the proper officer who, in turn, would have issued another process were it not that be was restrained from doing so by not receiving the proper instructions from the government.

The leader of the government (Mr. Borden) sought to draw a parallel between my hon. friend, the member for Essex (Mr. Clarke) sitting dumb in this House when delays in other cases took place and his Minister of Customs (Mr. Reid) sitting dumb when his conduct in regard to this

election was brought to the attention of the House by the right hon. the leader of the opposition, (SiT Wilfrid Laurier) a few days ago. Let me point out to the hon. leader of the government that there is a vast difference between the two cases of sitting dumb. In the case of the hon. member for Essex, the most that could be said against him was that if he did sit dumb when these delays occurred, he was merely open to reproof as one of a hundred odd members supporting the then government. But it is vastly different in the case of the Minister of Customs. His veracity was directly challenged, he not only sat dumb when the proofs in refutation of his statement were adduced, but to-day he rcse in his place and did not seek to refute the facts advanced by the leader of the oppostion (Sir Wilfrid Laurier) in refutation of his statements in South Renfrew. Out of that comparison the member for South Essex (Mr. Clarke) comes with flying colours indeed. But the Minister of Customs (Mr. Reid) to-day stated that his only reason for desiring a delay in this case was the state of the voters' lists, that there were a great many men up in the woods. Is it not rather singular then, when the hon. the Minister of Customs was airing his eloquence in South Renfrew, that reason never occurred to him? Is it not strange that the first time we hear that from the Minister of Customs is after he has been in South Renfrew, after he has urged as a reason for the support of his candidate the expenditure of road money and other matters calculated to interest the electorate at the time of a by-election? Is it not strange that for the first time we hear this afternoon from the Minister of Customs that his real reason for the delay in this case is the state of the voters' lists, and the fact that there are hundreds of men in the woods, about whom he is so solicitous that he desires to prolong the delay in order to give them an opportunity to vote. The instances of delay cited by the right hon. the leader of the government (Mr. Borden) mav or mav not be pertinent to this case. One could only be sure of that if he investigated each case and ascertained whether or not parliament was in session at the time. If parliament was not in session then the cases would not be pertinent Howeyer that may be, in the last analysis it resolves itself into another of these tu auoque arguments which does little credit to a leader of a government having such a powerful majority as the right hon. gentleman.

After ail, the point raised by the hon. member for South Essex (Mr. Clarke) remains untouched and unanswered. The hon. member for South Essex pointed out that under the law there Mr. MURPHY.

is always a voters' list available for an election in the older parts of Ontario. If the new list is 60 days old. that is the list and it is used. If it is not 60 days old, then, according to section 6 of the Act, the list last in force is used. As the right hon. the leader of the opposition pointed out, it is open to the government to use the lists used in the provincial election in December last. But they choose not to do so and want to create the impression that by reason of the present state of the lists, which are not complete in that county, the election cannot be brought on. If that argument were to be admitted then all elections in Canada, both general and by-elections, would be made dependent on the state of the voters' lists, and not upon the action of the government of the day. In other words, an election could be put off indefinitely owing to the delay, neglect or incompetence of municipal clerks in Ontario in not sending in lists in due time. The falsity of that argument is apparent when, it is stated. 'The law is specific, there is a list available and I submit that from what I have heard as to the reasons in this case, it never entered the minds of the government until two days ago to charge as a reason for delay in going on with this election that the lists were not ready. Having regard to the large number of electors on the list in South Renfrew and to the fact that the list for only one township is still in doubt, I say that my hon. friends are deprived of the very reason they advanced for not proceeding with this election. As a matter of fact, the list which was sent back for revision was sent back because of a mere typographical error, one that is obvious on its face. I am advised'that the court was held yesterday or to-day for the revision of that list and it will be back in the hands of the clerk of the Crown in Chancery either to-day or to-morrow. It bears date of January 15, and will be in force from that day, so that to-day, if the right hon. the leader of the government were so willed, he could issue the writ for this election. In view of what has been said and of the obvious duty of the government, I venture to express the hope that the writ will issue without any further delay.

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QUESTIONS.


(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk.)


THE OCEAN LIMITED.


Mr. EMMERSON- 1. When were the so-called Ocean Limited trains, known as trains No. 199 to 200, first put in operation on the Intercolonial railway? 2. At the time of the inauguration of these trains, was there an order issued prohibiting the transportation of official and private cars by said trains? 3. If so, when was such order recalled or repealed, if it were repealed or recalled? 4. Has the said prohibitive order been in operation during the years 1910 and 1911? If not, when did it first cease to be in operation ? . 5. What number of such official or private cars were transported during the said year 1910? 6. How many of such cars were transported by said trains during the year 1911, and on how many occasions were cars of the officials of the Intercolonial railway transported during the past season? 7. Were there any occasions when two of such official cars of the Board of Management were hauled on any one of such trains?


CON

Mr. COCHRANE: (Minister of Railways and Canals)

Conservative (1867-1942)

1. The Ocean Limited trains were first put in operation in July, 1904, No. 200 leaving Montreal July 3rd, and No. 199 leaving Halifax July 4th.

2. Yes.

3. The order was not recalled or repealed, but in special cases official and private cars have been put on these trains. The first occasion there is any record of, being the Governor General's car on August 4, 1904, from Levis to Montreal.

4. See answer to No. 3.

5. Thirty-two cars, as follows:

1910.

No. of times attached to No. 200. To 199.

G. T.R. ' Muskoka '

3 1D. & H.. ' Miniola '

3 0Official Govt. No. 28

7 2Official Govt. No. 37

3 2C.P.R. official car No. 2

1 0Official Govt. No. 34

5 4Private Pullman ' Olivet '

1 1Official Govt. ' Ottawa '

1 0.Private Pullman ' Conroy '

1 1Private Pullman * Signet '

1 1I.C.R. 'Campbellton' 1 3Private Pullman ' Constitution ' .. 1 0Nat. Trans. Ry. ' Transcona ' 1 0Official Govt. No. 35

0 1Private Pullman 'Plymouth Rook'. 0 Private Pullman ' Oceanic '

0B. & A. official No. 490

0 1Que. & Lake St. John Ry. ' Kamagamie '

0 1

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
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?

To Mr. L.@

& T. Ry. 'Frisco' No. 502... 0 1Private car ' York '

0 1Private car ' Cornwall '

0 1H. & S. W. By. No. 201

0 1

1911.

200 199

G.T.R. ' Muskoka '

4 1Official Govt. No. 28

3 0Official Govt. No. 37

5 3Official Govt. No. 34

5 3Official Govt. 'Ottawa'

3 0Private Pullman * Signet '

0I.C.R. ' Campbellton '

2Son. Ry. No. 105

1Nat. Trans. Ry. 'Transcona'.. ..3 6G.T.R. ' Bonaventure '

1 1Private Pullman 'Federal'

1 1Q.C.R. ' Sherbrooke ' .. ..

1 1Official Govt. No. 35

5 7Private Pullman ' Sunset '

1 0N.T. Ry. 'National'.. ..

9 4Official Govt. No. 139 .. ..

1 1Private Pullman ' Rocket '

1 0P.R. Co. No. 180

1 0C. B. & Q. No. 93

0 1Cars of officials were transported 31times, which number is included in the

above statement.

7. No.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   THE OCEAN LIMITED.
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EMPLOYMENT OF J. E. LAFORCE.

January 31, 1912