July 19, 1911

LIB
CON

George Taylor

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. TAYLOK (Leeds).

No.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-THE PORCUPINE FIRE.
Subtopic:   "9715 COMMONS
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LIB

Henry Robert Emmerson

Liberal

Mr. EMMEKSON.

How do you know it is politics then?

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-THE PORCUPINE FIRE.
Subtopic:   "9715 COMMONS
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CON

George Taylor

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. TAYLOK (Leeds).

I read a few copies of it until I found out what it was, and I got disgusted with it. If my hon. friend (Mr. Emmerson) will speak the truth he will say it is a political production from beginning to end.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-THE PORCUPINE FIRE.
Subtopic:   "9715 COMMONS
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LIB
CON

George Taylor

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. TAYLOK (Leeds).

Then my hon. friend gets up and and asks us not to talk politics in reference to this coal strike. Let the hon. gentleman adopt the plan I suggest-appoint a labour commission, and

let the verdict of that commission apply to both employers and employees.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-THE PORCUPINE FIRE.
Subtopic:   "9715 COMMONS
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CON

Haughton Lennox

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. LENNOX.

In reference to .the census, as a matter of'justice to the press* which has been pretty violently abused by the Minister of Agriculture I do not know that it was far out. I believe, if there was an investigation, there would be found to be a good deal of ground for what the ' Journal ' has said. Although the minister has had the good luck as an unmarried man to be enumerated twice, and his wife was not asked any questions as to her age, I may tell him that as far as I know I have not been enumerated at all. I have been living in a place where I have lived for many years, and since the adjournment of the House two months ago I have been pretty regularly at home, and I have never had a suggestion in reference to the enumeration. My house has been constantly occupied, and I feel quite confident that if any inquiry had been made at my residence I would have been told of it. I will inquire, however, to make it absolutely certain. I do not think this is an isolated case. I think numerous instances will be found all over the country in which enumerations have not taken place, and the minister need not get violent about it until he knows the facts better than he does at present. In some respects I know the enumerators have been very active. I was at some public gatherings where discussions of a political nature took place, and the South Simcoe enumerators were very active in interrupting and contradicting and making themselves offensive. That is the only knowledge I have at the present time of the duties performed by the enumerators in South Simcoe.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-THE PORCUPINE FIRE.
Subtopic:   "9715 COMMONS
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CON

Charles Joseph Doherty

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. DOHERTY.

I understood the Minister of Agriculture to say that the case of Ros-emount had been investigated, but I did not gather what the result was.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-THE PORCUPINE FIRE.
Subtopic:   "9715 COMMONS
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LIB

Sydney Arthur Fisher (Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Mr. FISHER.

I have not got the report.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-THE PORCUPINE FIRE.
Subtopic:   "9715 COMMONS
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CON

Charles Joseph Doherty

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. DOHERTY.

The minister is not in a position to say that the statement of the reckless journalist in that ease was not correct.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-THE PORCUPINE FIRE.
Subtopic:   "9715 COMMONS
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LIB

Sydney Arthur Fisher (Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Mr. FISHER.

I am not in a position to say positively.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-THE PORCUPINE FIRE.
Subtopic:   "9715 COMMONS
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CON

Charles Joseph Doherty

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. DOHERTY.

Rosemount in my section is a very large district. Another large district, Vilieray, I believe, was entirely omitted, and attention was called to the fact by a paper which the minister would not characterize as reckless because it has the great prudence of supporting this government, and if I am not mistaken the commissioner himself admitted that it was overlooked. Then, it is stated generally

by the newspapers that Hampton Court, a large apartment house, had been entirely overlooked. These cases seem to justify me in asking whether there is any method provided for checking )the /work 'of the enumerators, or does the department consider that its duty is done when it sends out enumerators and only concerns itself with their possible omissions when newspapers or individuals take upon themselves to call attention to them? If that is the position, it occurs to me that it is a very loose method of getting at the census. What is the provision for checking the enumerators?

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-THE PORCUPINE FIRE.
Subtopic:   "9715 COMMONS
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LIB

Sydney Arthur Fisher (Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Mr. FISHER.

It is the duty of the commissioner to go over every schedule that comes in, and cheek it by his general knowledge of the district, and see that all the houses are included. If several houses were omitted, that would be evident from the fact that the numbers of those houses were not scheduled.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-THE PORCUPINE FIRE.
Subtopic:   "9715 COMMONS
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CON

Charles Joseph Doherty

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. DOHERTY:

As I understand, he

only does that from his general knowledge of the locality. That will not enable him to go any further than to say that every kcuse number has been counted up. There is no means of saying that the enumerator has made a correct return of the number of people in each house. The matter seems to me to be of sufficient importance to require some more effective check over the work of the enumerators.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-THE PORCUPINE FIRE.
Subtopic:   "9715 COMMONS
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LIB

Sydney Arthur Fisher (Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Mr. FISHER.

That would simply mean another enumeration by somebody else.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-THE PORCUPINE FIRE.
Subtopic:   "9715 COMMONS
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CON

Charles Joseph Doherty

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. DOHERTY.

I do not think it would be absolutely necessary to have a second enumeration. But we have now before us evidence of the fact that there aire omissions,, and I would think that would be something to be anticipated. 1 do not know the enumerators of the city of Montreal, but I would think that a check might be got at by making some sort of test which would enable one to arrive at a conclusion as to whether in a general way the work had been carefully done. It seems to me a very unsatisfactory answer to say that if an individual complains, the matter will be looked into and rectified. The department is charged with getting this work done. People of public spirit, when they find that they have not been enumerated, may come forward and point it out, but there are a great number of people' who are careless about such matters or who do not really know that a census is going on at all. This is not a case in which there is a grievance on the part of a person whose name has been omitted. The work is being done for the public benefit and it transpires that the department charged with finding an effective way of getting it done correctly, sends out people

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-THE PORCUPINE FIRE.
Subtopic:   "9715 COMMONS
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CON

Charles Joseph Doherty

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. DOHERTY.

to make the enumeration of whose qualifications or responsibility . it is quite impossible for the public to have any knowledge.

Without casting any reflection upon the commissioners, there is no method given them whatever by which they can check the enumeration. Without proposing that another man should be sent out to do the enumeration over again, I submit that some means could be devised which would enable the commissioners to conclude whether the enumerators generally were doing their duty. For instance, somebody might be sent afterwards to inquire generally whether the enumerator had gone from house to house in that locality. The matter is one sufficiently important to warrant every precaution being taken. On the correctness of the census depends the right to representation of the different sections of this country. This important work has necessarily to be trusted to a class of our people who have no other occupation at that moment, and we are consequently depending upon the unchecked and uncontrolled action of enumerators of whose qualifications and responsibility we have no means of being informed and whose work we have no means of checking. Without proposing two separate enumerations, it seems to me that some method could be devised of finding out whether these men were doing their duty properly or not.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-THE PORCUPINE FIRE.
Subtopic:   "9715 COMMONS
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LIB

Henry Robert Emmerson

Liberal

Mr. EMMERSON.

I am rather surprised at the character of the complaint. In as much as the pay of each enumerator depends on the number of names he secures, one would think that he would show a good deal of zeal in securing a large number.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-THE PORCUPINE FIRE.
Subtopic:   "9715 COMMONS
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CON

Charles Joseph Doherty

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. DOHERTY.

Would it not be just as bad if too many names were enumerated? The complaint is not that we do not get as many as we should but that we have no guarantee of accuracy.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-THE PORCUPINE FIRE.
Subtopic:   "9715 COMMONS
Permalink
LIB

Henry Robert Emmerson

Liberal

Mr. EMMERSON.

So far the complaints we have heard are to the effect that a great many names have escaped the attention of the enumerator. I have not heard many complaints that too many names were entered except the complaint of the hon. member for Leeds (Mr. Taylor) who says that American citizens were entered in our census. I can quite understand that American citizens who own property in this country would have their names taken down as the enumerators would require, to know who were the owners of the property. The hon. member for St. Anne (Mt. Doherty) says it would be desirable to have a sort of review of the enumeration. He would like to have a supervisor to supervise the work of the census commissioner and enumerator in

each county or district. As we are dependent upon individuals for the enumeration there must necessarily be inaccuracies, but I think that in the main we can fairly conclude that the census has been pretty accurately taken. In the section from which I come the commissioners, when they got their schedules from the enumerators took special pains-I know that to be the case at Westmoreland-sought to go through the several districts and inquire as to whether, generally speaking, there had been a correct census. 'J}he comm)is(sioner of course does not travel from house to house or from community to community, but he makes inquiry as to whether the enumerator has attended generally to his work. I am bound to admit that we did, in some instances, find some inaccuracies-one in particular because of a misunderstanding regarding the boundary of a district. As a result of the supervision thus taken by the county commissioners, the correction was made and the census properly taken with Tespect to that section. W'e must deal with this matter practically. There may be errors here and there as in the case of my hon, friend the leader of the opposition (Mr. Borden); and I am sure it would be a very unfortunate circumstance if his name were omitted as it would be if any man's name were omitted.

Every one counts one and we are all anxious to have as accurate a statement of the actual population in our respective sections as can be had. I think that an accurate census has been taken. I hope the enumerators have not omitted any names in the maritime provinces for I am sure that with the numbers we have been sending to the west during the past two or three years, we have suffered very largely in the matter of population and I trust that the enumerators throughout New Brunswick have not been negligent and have not failed to take the names of every individual. I had the honour of a call from the census officer; I was permitted to give him my name and age, and he took them down. I think we should dead with the matter practically and I hope there is no ulterior object in bringing to the notice of the House and the country any of these slight mistakes or inaccuracies or want of attention on the part of the officials that may have occurred. I think a sincere effort has been made to get the best men. I found it in Westmorland very difficult to secure men, people are not free. While it was difficult to get officials there was a splendid selection.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-THE PORCUPINE FIRE.
Subtopic:   "9715 COMMONS
Permalink

July 19, 1911