May 15, 1911

CON

George Henry Bradbury

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BRADBURY.

I do not know why Mr. Perry should invite these enumerators into his office if it was not for consideration, consultation or instructions.

Topic:   SUPPLY-EXPERIMENTAL FRUIT AND VEGETABLE FARMS AND TECHNICAL EDUCATION.
Subtopic:   H. E. PERRY.
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LIB

Sydney Arthur Fisher (Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Mr. FISHER.

That is gratuitous assumption on the hon. member's part. There is no foundation for it.

Topic:   SUPPLY-EXPERIMENTAL FRUIT AND VEGETABLE FARMS AND TECHNICAL EDUCATION.
Subtopic:   H. E. PERRY.
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CON

George Henry Bradbury

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BRADBURY.

We need not split hairs as to why he was asking them to call. But it is the duty of the minister to see to it that the public are safeguarded from a man like this taking upon himself the authority to write such letters to enumerators appointed to take the census of this country. If this man was not authorized, where did he get his knowledge of the number of the district which each man was to take charge of? Why, Mr. Speaker, it is as plain to me as anything can be that this organizer was given this information and was given an opportunity of picking these men-perhaps not by the minister; I have to accept his statement across the floor of the House-but certainly by some one in authority. I do not object to this man being chosen to take charge of the census of Manitoba because he is a Liberal organizer. In my own country, the man who is chosen to look after the taking of the census is the Liberal organizer of the county, Ira Stratton. Hs is Mr. FISHER.

mjore than that; he has a position that keeps him on the road all the time; he is secretary of the post office association. He boasts openly that he has the patronage of the county. Man after man has been appointed, to my knowledge, on his recommendation, and, more than that, he is the probable Liberal candidate in the next election.

Topic:   SUPPLY-EXPERIMENTAL FRUIT AND VEGETABLE FARMS AND TECHNICAL EDUCATION.
Subtopic:   H. E. PERRY.
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?

An hon. MEMBER.

He must be a good man.

Topic:   SUPPLY-EXPERIMENTAL FRUIT AND VEGETABLE FARMS AND TECHNICAL EDUCATION.
Subtopic:   H. E. PERRY.
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CON

George Henry Bradbury

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BRADBURY.

No doubt as good a man or a better man than our friend Perry, although I do not think he is so well qualified for the position he occupies as Liberal organizer as Mr. Perry is. I believe it is the duty of the minister to repudiate this Liberal organizer Perry and to warn the public that this man has no authority to write these letters broadcast asking these men to call at his office and get instructions. The letter bears on its face evidence that he is acting on authority from some source, and the minister, who alone ;s responsible to this House for the action of his department, must take the responsibility and repudiate this man unless he is acting with authority.

Topic:   SUPPLY-EXPERIMENTAL FRUIT AND VEGETABLE FARMS AND TECHNICAL EDUCATION.
Subtopic:   H. E. PERRY.
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CON

Glenlyon Campbell

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. GLEN CAMPBELL (Dauphin).

I have never seen a minister so hard put for words, especially a verbose gentleman like the Minister of Agriculture who always has words to defend a question such as has been brought up by my hon. friend from Macdonald (Mr. Staples). This is one of the most indefensible things brought to the attention of the House this session. It has been shown that a certain man in the employ of the Liberal party in the west has been officially taking part in the appointment of census enumerators. I have in my hand a letter from the executive office of the Liberal organizer of Manitoba signed by the organizer and marked 'confidential circular' showing that this is not the only one that was sent out, that perhaps hundreds of others have been sent out to various enumerators, as I believe. It is evident that Perry has taken on himself a, great part in the appointment of enumerators. It has been shown here that this man has been doing his utmost, perhaps for party reasons, to shield criminals; birds of a feather are noted for flocking together, and if he has been in the habit of shielding criminals, I have not the slightest doubt that in his choice of enumerators for this census he will not pick the cleanest men he can employ. The letters which he wrote to these fugitives from justice, if you can read between the lines, show that he kept these men while they were in the United States, fugitives from Canadian justice. The minister said that one of these men, Moberl-ey, had been brought before the courts and found guilty of a trivial offence.

The Liberal party must be clipped in tar to call such offences as these men committed, trivial. This man was convicted of making false returns on oath, perjury of the worst kind, and the little old gentleman sits there and calls that a trivial offence against the laws of Canada.

Topic:   SUPPLY-EXPERIMENTAL FRUIT AND VEGETABLE FARMS AND TECHNICAL EDUCATION.
Subtopic:   H. E. PERRY.
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?

Some hon. MEMBERS

Order, order.

Topic:   SUPPLY-EXPERIMENTAL FRUIT AND VEGETABLE FARMS AND TECHNICAL EDUCATION.
Subtopic:   H. E. PERRY.
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LIB

Onésiphore Ernest Talbot

Liberal

Mr. TALBOT.

Has the hon. gentleman from Dauphin a right to call the Minister of Agriculture 'the little old gentlemen'?

Topic:   SUPPLY-EXPERIMENTAL FRUIT AND VEGETABLE FARMS AND TECHNICAL EDUCATION.
Subtopic:   H. E. PERRY.
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LIB

James Kirkpatrick Kerr (Speaker of the Senate)

Liberal

Mr. SPEAKER.

The words are not unparliamentary.

Topic:   SUPPLY-EXPERIMENTAL FRUIT AND VEGETABLE FARMS AND TECHNICAL EDUCATION.
Subtopic:   H. E. PERRY.
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CON

Glenlyon Campbell

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. CAMPBELL.

If the hon. member for Bellechasse (Mr. Talbot) can find a more appropriate term, after the speech we had from the minister, I would be glad to use it. Another offence which the minister calls trivial was the stuffing of ballot boxes. I would call that pretty near a hanging offence, but he might call it trivial because the stuffing of ballot boxes on behalf of the Liberal party has become so common that they regard it as trivial. Mr. Perry winds up his letter: Yours in the good cause. I would ask the minister what he considers the good cause in a letter from an organizer of the Liberal party to a criminal who is a fugitive from justice. May I ask an answer?

Topic:   SUPPLY-EXPERIMENTAL FRUIT AND VEGETABLE FARMS AND TECHNICAL EDUCATION.
Subtopic:   H. E. PERRY.
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?

Some hon. MEMBERS

Vote.

Topic:   SUPPLY-EXPERIMENTAL FRUIT AND VEGETABLE FARMS AND TECHNICAL EDUCATION.
Subtopic:   H. E. PERRY.
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CON

Glenlyon Campbell

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. CAMPBELL.

Evidently the minister is ashamed of the cause, whether it is good or not. I am sure he is ashamed of the cause he is espousing to-night as is every Liberal on that side, because no one has risen to defend it except the minister and my friend from Bellechasse (Mr. Talbot), who made a very able defence. It was brought to your attention by the hon. member for Macdonald, Mr. Speaker, that Prince Albert, in the northwestern part of Canada, is known to have been perhaps the most crooked part of the whole Of Canada in the matter of elections in the Liberal cause. It has been represented by a gentleman who is now a senator. I shall not further advert to him except to say that he has the honour of having been the sponsor for most of the gentlemen who did the kind of work which has been charged against Liberal workers out in that country. This is the part of Canada, Sir, that on one occasion was represented by the Hon. the Prime Minister (Sir Wilfrid Lau-rier). Some years after the rebellion, in 1885, when the election was held, the great and only cry was: Vote for Laurier; he is the great white French leader down in eastern Canada and he is the man who said that if he had been up here when Riel was fighting he would have shouldered his musket; therefore you must vote for him,1

he being a good loyal French Canadian. He was elected and Mr. McKay was defeated.

Topic:   SUPPLY-EXPERIMENTAL FRUIT AND VEGETABLE FARMS AND TECHNICAL EDUCATION.
Subtopic:   H. E. PERRY.
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?

An hon. MEMBER.

Very fine.

Topic:   SUPPLY-EXPERIMENTAL FRUIT AND VEGETABLE FARMS AND TECHNICAL EDUCATION.
Subtopic:   H. E. PERRY.
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?

An hon. MEMBER.

Very good.

Topic:   SUPPLY-EXPERIMENTAL FRUIT AND VEGETABLE FARMS AND TECHNICAL EDUCATION.
Subtopic:   H. E. PERRY.
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CON

Glenlyon Campbell

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. CAMPBELL.

I do not know whether I heard my hon, friend who now represents Prince Albert say 'very fine,' but I presume that when he used those words he was referring to the methods which were employed in his deferred election. This is above all the place in Canada where corruption of all sorts has been perpetrated in the past, and I hope that in future we will not be justified in saying anything of the kind about it. If nothing of the kind can be said about it there will not be a Liberal member representing it. I hope that the good sense of this House will compel hon. members, regardless of their politics, to vote in strong support of the resolution brought forth by the hon. member for Macdonald.

Topic:   SUPPLY-EXPERIMENTAL FRUIT AND VEGETABLE FARMS AND TECHNICAL EDUCATION.
Subtopic:   H. E. PERRY.
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LIB

William Erskine Knowles

Liberal

Mr. W. E. KNOWLES (Moosejaw).

Mr. Speaker, the motion which has been placed in your hands by the hon. member for Macdonald (Mr. Staples) in amendment to the motion to go into Committee of Supply is not very harmful. It is divided into ltwo parte. The first part is such that no person would very seriously take exception to it. The second part is one, which, because of its innuendo, can scarcely be *accepted by this side of the House without acknowledging that there has been that [DOT]corruption which he says is not to be allowed to continue. However, the motion itself is not nearly as unfair, is not nearly as undesirable a thing to bring into this House, as some of the remarks which have been made by gentlemen who have spoken in favour of the amendment. The remarks of the hon. member for Macdonald, while generally in good nature, were such as scarcely to call for any serious reply on this side of the House. I think that if you take out his facetious references to 'beer and pickled pigs' feet,' take out his weighty arguments with regard to 'jack rabbits,' and eliminate some of the deep and ponderous remarks which, as the product of a curious mental process, poured forth from his lips, there is very little left which calls for any reply. The circular upon which he based his remarks is to my mind the most harmless communication that he could have brought here. There is nothing on the face of it, or on the back of it, which requires any defence from this side of the House. In the first place it is a confidential communication. I am not surprised at its use here. It is a circular and, in endeavouring to bring up a motion such as this I suppose these hon. gentlemen can go very far and 1 verv wide of the mark to bring forward

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a document of this character, although they make use of a confidential communication signed by Mr. H. E. Perry. My first impression was to consider it a departure from good taste to read a confidential communication, but we will let that go as unimportant. They brought in one or two points that are absolutely foreign to the communication itself. The one which is most offensive which they endeavour to read between the lines is that the organizer called upon the prospective appointees to come into his office and receive instructions. Hon. gentlemen on the other side of the House, when they present that view of it, know full well that there is no such thought suggested by the letter. You can read that letter from beginning to end and there is no such idea in the mind of the writer as that which is suggested by these hon. gentlemen. There is a little postscript at the close of the letter which says: 'When in the city come in and see me." Could there be a more ordinary thing to say than that? The organizer anxious to make good feeling says at the foot of his letter: 'Come in and see me.'

There is not a suggestion of wrong-doing or of corruption in that little postscript. Notwithstanding the insinuation that 'hon. gentlemen endeavour to make with respect to the writer of that letter, I say there is nothing in it to be in the slightest ashamed of. It gives notice to certain men that they have been recommended. That letter might have been written just as well and in just as good faith by any hon. member on the other side of the House or by the Conservative organizer conveying the information to a certain man that he had been appointed to such and such a position.

Topic:   SUPPLY-EXPERIMENTAL FRUIT AND VEGETABLE FARMS AND TECHNICAL EDUCATION.
Subtopic:   H. E. PERRY.
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CON

William D. Staples

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. STAPLES.

That letter says: I beg to advise you that you have been appointed.

Topic:   SUPPLY-EXPERIMENTAL FRUIT AND VEGETABLE FARMS AND TECHNICAL EDUCATION.
Subtopic:   H. E. PERRY.
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?

Some hon. MEMBERS

No, no.

Topic:   SUPPLY-EXPERIMENTAL FRUIT AND VEGETABLE FARMS AND TECHNICAL EDUCATION.
Subtopic:   H. E. PERRY.
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CON

William D. Staples

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. STAPLES.

He is the man who advises these gentlemen that they have been appointed.

Topic:   SUPPLY-EXPERIMENTAL FRUIT AND VEGETABLE FARMS AND TECHNICAL EDUCATION.
Subtopic:   H. E. PERRY.
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LIB

William Erskine Knowles

Liberal

Mr. KNOWLES.

That is exactly what I am saying. It might be written by any one. This gentleman sits down and says: 'I beg to advise you that you have been appointed.' I have written many such letters in which I have made no recommendation whatever. I learn that a person has been appointed to an office and I write him, as I would write him with regard to anything else that might concern him, and say: 'I beg to advise you that you have been appointed.' If an hon. gentleman opposite learned in one of the departments in the city of Ottawa of the appointment of a rural postmaster would it not be the most natural thing in the world for him Mr. KNOWLES.

to sit down and write: 'I beg to advise

you that you have been appointed to such and such a post office?' That would not mean that the writer had the ear of the government. My hon. friends from the west have written to more than one homesteader saying that there has been granted such and such a concession at the hands of the department. This is merely doing what we are doing every day.

Topic:   SUPPLY-EXPERIMENTAL FRUIT AND VEGETABLE FARMS AND TECHNICAL EDUCATION.
Subtopic:   H. E. PERRY.
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May 15, 1911