May 12, 1911

LIB

Sydney Arthur Fisher (Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Mr. FISHER.

No, and that is the trouble. If the ^United States belonged to the union, and if we had the privilege in the United States which the union gives to all other countries, the difficulty would b<; solved.

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CON

Robert Laird Borden (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BORDEN (Halifax).

It seems then that Great Britain admits the copyright of all foreigners. Great Britain belongs to the union,_ and a foreigner taking out a copyright in Great Britain, therefore, can take out a copyright in Canada. We joined the union unreservedly. Then the next question is this: Would it be permitted us to

join the union with the reservation which the minister suggests?

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LIB

Sydney Arthur Fisher (Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Mr. FISHER.

That is just what we cannot say. We now belong to the union, and as long as we continue in the union we cannot help ourselves. But under this Bill we have the right to withdraw from the union. We joined the union by the voluntary act of the Canadian government some 16 or 17 years ago, and in doing that we got the privileges of the union and gave the privileges of the union. We gave the privileges of the union then, to a large extent, because one country against which we might desire to defend ourselves had all the privileges of the union in Canada through the British Copyright Act. Now under the new British Copyright Act they will not have that privilege, and we have the power within ourselves of giving or not giving that privilege. I think it would be a wise policy for us to say that we will not give privileges where the other people do not give us privileges. I think that is a reasonable position to take. I took that position in the conference in London last spring, and I do not think I am divulging any 'secret when I say that the conference admitted the principle and accepted that proposition. But England is so committed to the union, and so desirous of remaining in the union, that I am not prepared to say that England will join the union with the same reservation. I believe the conference was disposed to advise that, but I cannot say what will be done. I think that Canada ought only to join the union with a reservation, and if the union refuses to accept that reservation I would be disposed to stay out of it. I would do that with great regret, but at the same time I think it is necessary, and I am free to admit that it is necessary because the United States is not in the union. If the United States were in the union, and we got the privileges in the United States which we would get if they were in the union, then I would not hesi-

tate, but as long as an American citizen can get all the privileges and advantages in the union countries without the United States joining the union, or giving the same privileges in the United States. I do not feel disposed to join and give these privileges in Canada which they refuse us in the United States.

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CON

John Graham Haggart

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. HAGGART (Lanark).

What position would you be in if you withdrew from the union?

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LIB

Sydney Arthur Fisher (Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Mr. FISHER.

We would be in an isolated position, very much like the United States is, but we would have the control and management of our own copyright in Canada.

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CON

John Graham Haggart

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. HAGGART (Lanark).

You would have to make a separate arrangement with each country?

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LIB

Sydney Arthur Fisher (Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Mr. FISHER.

With each country. This Bill contemplates what I eall_ reciprocal arrangements within the empire. I would advocate very strongly that as soon as this Bill passes we immediately give to British copyright holders in Great Britain the full privileges of Canadian copyright, on the understanding that Great Britain shall give ns the full privileges of British copyright. I would also propose that we should give the same privileges to Australia, New Zealand, South Africa and Newfoundland. I am satisfied that -these different self-governing parts of the empire would treat us in the same way that we would be disposed to treat them. When it comes to foreign countries, supposing we were outside of the union, I would like to deal with them on a reasonable basis of mutual advantage. It may be in one way with one country, and in another way with another country, but I would like to do it on the basis that we get something for what we give. I cannot tell what our success in that respect would be, but I have hopes that to-day the Canadian market for literature, music, dramatic works and things of that kind, is becoming of sufficient importance to induce other countries to desire to have copyright privileges in Canada; in fact, I know that that is the case with many, and I have reason to believe that if we were withdrawing from the international union immediate steps would be taken by a number of countries to obtain the privileges of the union in Canada. I hope the reservation that I have indicated will be accepted by the union, but I cannot be sure of that.

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CON

Joseph Elijah Armstrong

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. ARMSTRONG.

I would like to ask the hon. minister whether any investigation will be made as to the copyrights that will be granted to different periodicals or books that will be printed in Canada? I merely ask that because I know that at the present time there are magazines and books Mr. FISHER.

coming into our country that should not be coming in.

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LIB

Sydney Arthur Fisher (Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Mr. FISHER.

I do not quite know what the hon. gentleman is referring to. If he would specify perhaps I could give him a little more information.

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CON

Joseph Elijah Armstrong

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. ARMSTRONG.

I understand the minister is preparing a law to grant copyrights to people who wish to come in and dispose of their books in Canada. Am I correct in that position?

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LIB

Sydney Arthur Fisher (Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Mr. FISHER.

I am proposing a Bill which governs the whole question of copyright in Canada, and part of that Bill proposes to give the Governor in Council power to make arrangements with foreign countries on terms of mutual advantage. That would be done by order in council, and each order in council would specify just what .the privileges were, and what extent they were granted to each particular country.

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CON

Joseph Elijah Armstrong

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. ARMSTRONG.

Would the order in council specify the names of the books that will be allowed to be brought in?

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LIB

Sydney Arthur Fisher (Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Mr. FISHER.

No. The order in council would have to be in general terms, not specifying books at all. I do not know what my hon. friend is referring to in that respect, but I could give him more information if he would let me know what he has in mind.

On section 2,

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CON

George Eulas Foster

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. FOSTER.

Are these the same interpretation clauses as in the British Act?

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LIB

Sydney Arthur Fisher (Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Mr. FISHER.

Yes, verbatim. Most, if not all, are definitions arrived at by agreement in the union.

On section 3,

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LIB

Sydney Arthur Fisher (Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Mr. FISHER.

I beg to move:

That subclauses 2 and 3 of clause 3 be stricken out and the following three subclauses be substituted therefor:

2. Every copy of a literary work published in Canada other than maps, musical, scientific and artistic charts and plans, shall be printed or made in Canada.

3. Every copy of a work published in Canada shall bear notice of copyright.

(a) If the work is a book or other printed publication on the title page or on the page immediately following; or,

(b) If the work is a literary (other than a book or other printed publication) or a musical work, engraving, photograph or cinematograph, on the face thereof; or, .

(o) If the work is a volume of maps, charts, plans, tables, music, engravings or photographs, on the title page or first page thereof, in the words, ' Copyright/ Canada. 19- by A. B.'

1. Every painting, drawing or work of sculpture published in Canada shall hear the signature of the author which shall be notice of copyright.

The resolution as printed would mean that every musical work, drama, map or

anything^ of that kind would have to be printed in Canada as well as a literary work. It has been represented that there are obvious difficulties in that, and we propose that in the case of these articles which are sometimes very difficult to print, sometimes only a single copy would be wanted, the printing may be done outside of Canada. For instance, a sculptor who made a statue would get copyright, but we would not require him to produce the statue in Canada. Frequently a Canadian artist goes abroad to study and he might copyright his_ painting in Canada without being obliged to paint it in Canada.

On section' 5-term of copyright.

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CON
LIB

Sydney Arthur Fisher (Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Mr. FISHER.

That is the term that has been adopted by the International union. It has been accepted by England, and is contained in the Bill of Mr. Buxton.

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CON
LIB

Sydney Arthur Fisher (Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Mr. FISHER.

In Canada, 28 years, with a renewal for 14 years, making 42 years. In England it was alternative-during the life of the author and 7 years, or 42 years, whichever was the longer period. The English committee which investigated this question of copyright under the presidency of Lord Gorrell, went into the matter very thoroughly, and made an elaborate report recommending this term.

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May 12, 1911