May 10, 1911

LIB

William Cameron Edwards

Liberal

Mr. EDWARDS.

In granting subsidies to steamship lines between Canada and other countries the most serious consideration should be given to the character of the products interchanged. If the products coming from these countries to Canada are such as would come into direct competition with the products of our own people, the question of the cost of production in these other countries, the rate of wages paid, &e., should be most carefully looked into. *>

Topic:   SUPPLY.
Subtopic:   J. A. FRASER, A.G.
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LIB

Wilfrid Laurier (Prime Minister; President of the Privy Council)

Liberal

Sir WILFRID LAURIER.

The chief object of these subsidies is to push Canadian exports in the markets of other countries, and up to the present no one has questioned the advisability of that. If we do that we must be prepared to take what other countries send us. We have little to expect from South Africa in that respect, because the chief products are fruits and wines. Last year we imported from South Africa 24,000,000 pounds of raw sugar.

Topic:   SUPPLY.
Subtopic:   J. A. FRASER, A.G.
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CON

Joseph Elijah Armstrong

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. ARMSTRONG.

There are a number of steamship subsidies, each for a small amount, between local points in the eastern provinces, which in the aggregate amount to a large sum. The only subsidy of such a kind on the inland waters is between Pelee island and the mainland, which of course is an absolute necessity. There are many ports on the lakes which have not communication with each other, and would the Prime Minister be willing to grant local subsidies the same as is done in the eastern provinces?

Topic:   SUPPLY.
Subtopic:   J. A. FRASER, A.G.
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LIB

Wilfrid Laurier (Prime Minister; President of the Privy Council)

Liberal

Sir WILFRID LAURIER.

Certainly, if the conditions are similar. For instance, if there is any place in Lambton county where the people are isolated and without railways, and where they can only communicate with the rest of the world by steamers, we would do it right away,.

Topic:   SUPPLY.
Subtopic:   J. A. FRASER, A.G.
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CON

Joseph Elijah Armstrong

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. ARMSTRONG.

I have in mind places along the Great Lakes which I believe are similarly situated to those places in the eastern provinces, and which would be materially assisted by such a subsidy.

Topic:   SUPPLY.
Subtopic:   J. A. FRASER, A.G.
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LIB

Wilfrid Laurier (Prime Minister; President of the Privy Council)

Liberal

Sir WILFRID LAURIER.

If the people have no communication with the outside, they ought to have it by all means.

insula between the Gulf of St. Lawrence and the Baie de Chaleur. It has been without railway communication, although this year a railway is to be opened up to Gaspe basin. The place has been absolutely isolated, and this was the only means of communication they had all the year round.

Topic:   SUPPLY.
Subtopic:   J. A. FRASER, A.G.
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CON

Joseph Elijah Armstrong

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. ARMSTRONG.

I quite understand that, but I have in mind places in my own riding such as Grand Bend, a village^ 14 miles from a railway, or Bayfield, 15 miles from one, and many others along the Great Lakes. On the Atlantic coast they are well supplied with steamboat communication, but in the inland waters there is little assistance.

Topic:   SUPPLY.
Subtopic:   J. A. FRASER, A.G.
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CON

Thomas Simpson Sproule

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. SPROULE.

Take Little Current or Manitowaning on the island, they have no communication at all.

Steam service from the opening to the closing of navigation in 1911, between Port Mul-grave, St. Peter's, Irish Cove and Marble Mrvrm+fnn a.nrl other i>orts OT1 thA liras d. Ur

lakes, $6,000.

Topic:   SUPPLY.
Subtopic:   J. A. FRASER, A.G.
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CON

George Halsey Perley

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. PERLEY.

What system is there for looking over these different services each year, and seeing whether they are required? Sometimes in looking at the estimates it has appeared to me that once you had an item of this kind in the estimates, it was there for ever.

Topic:   SUPPLY.
Subtopic:   J. A. FRASER, A.G.
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LIB

Wilfrid Laurier (Prime Minister; President of the Privy Council)

Liberal

Sir WILFRID LAURIER.

I do not think that these services could be dispensed with. All these places are isolated, they have no means of railway accommodation or communication with the outside world except through the steamships. The population is not large and unless they are assisted in some way they will have less frequent communication or none at all.

Topic:   SUPPLY.
Subtopic:   J. A. FRASER, A.G.
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CON

Thomas Simpson Sproule

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. SPROULE.

In many of these places, the population grows, the industries increase sufficiently to warrant boats calling there at regular times, and getting trade. That is the case on the upper lakes. One would expect that in some of these places on the coast there would he the same development as in the inland portions of the country, and that there would come a time when this service might be carried on without the assistance of a subsidy.

Topic:   SUPPLY.
Subtopic:   J. A. FRASER, A.G.
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LIB

Wilfrid Laurier (Prime Minister; President of the Privy Council)

Liberal

Sir WILFRID LAURIER.

My hon. friend is aware that the population of New Brunswick and Nova Scotia has not increased within the last 20 years, and the government has not been .sufficiently long in office to get it increased.

Steam service from the opening to the closing of navigation in 1911, between Gasp6 basin and Dalhonsie or Campbellton, $15,000.

Topic:   SUPPLY.
Subtopic:   J. A. FRASER, A.G.
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LIB

Wilfrid Laurier (Prime Minister; President of the Privy Council)

Liberal

Sir WILFRID LAURIER.

This is a case of the kind I mentioned just now. The county of Gaspe is at the end of the pen-

Topic:   SUPPLY.
Subtopic:   J. A. FRASER, A.G.
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CON

George Halsey Perley

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. PERLEY.

The right hon. gentleman says that these are isolated communities which need this service. I am not objecting to the service, hut what I want to know is whether the department has any system of looking into these different services so

as to ascertain whether these subsidies are still required. What the hon. member for Grey (Mr. Sproule) has said with reference to the inland waters might be very true with regard to some of these services, and the subsidy alone be sufficient to sustain them. Because we give a subsidy for two or three years, should not mean that we should give it for ever.

Topic:   SUPPLY.
Subtopic:   J. A. FRASER, A.G.
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LIB

Wilfrid Laurier (Prime Minister; President of the Privy Council)

Liberal

Sir WILFRID LAURIER.

I hope they will not go on for ever. The port of Mul-grave is on the strait of Canso and has very little population. St. Peters in Cape Breton is a small fishing village, and Irish Cove is in the same position. There has been no increase of population such as would warrant dispensing with the service.

Topic:   SUPPLY.
Subtopic:   J. A. FRASER, A.G.
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CON

George Halsey Perley

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. PERLEY.

I was not referring to this particular item but to the general policy.

Topic:   SUPPLY.
Subtopic:   J. A. FRASER, A.G.
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LIB

Wilfrid Laurier (Prime Minister; President of the Privy Council)

Liberal

Sir WILFRID LAURIER.

The department has to take each case by itself, and up to the present has not come to a conclusion that it can dispense with this assistance.

Topic:   SUPPLY.
Subtopic:   J. A. FRASER, A.G.
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CON

Thomas Simpson Sproule

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. SPROULE.

The information given us to-night does not correspond with that given us from time to time when we are asked to vote money to improve these harbours. Then we are always told that they are important places, rapidly growing, and on that account it is absolutely necessary to spend a lot of money there. But if they be growing, one would naturally expect that the time would come when it would not be necessary to give these subsidies, and the trade would be self-sustaining.

Topic:   SUPPLY.
Subtopic:   J. A. FRASER, A.G.
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LIB

Wilfrid Laurier (Prime Minister; President of the Privy Council)

Liberal

Sir WILFRID LAURIER.

When a place is growing we ask for a wharf, and when it is not growling we ask for assistance.

Topic:   SUPPLY.
Subtopic:   J. A. FRASER, A.G.
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CON

George Halsey Perley

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. PERLEY.

Take the items 197 to 200. They all seem to be for service between Mulgrave and other ports.

Topic:   SUPPLY.
Subtopic:   J. A. FRASER, A.G.
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May 10, 1911