May 4, 1911

LIB

George Perry Graham (Minister of Railways and Canals)

Liberal

Mr. GRAHAM.

It will not. Take lino 17, and you will find the words ' with its appurtenances and rolling stock.' Strike out the word ' rolling stock.'

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LIB

Gilbert Howard McIntyre (Deputy Speaker and Chair of Committees of the Whole of the House of Commons)

Liberal

Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER.

It is moved in amendment that the words ' rolling stock ' be struck out.

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Amendment agreed to.


CON

Oswald Smith Crocket

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. CROCKET.

When the resolution upon which this Bill is founded was before the House I moved an amendment for the purpose of making the resolution agree with the Act passed by the New Brunswick legislature authorizing the Lieutenant Governor in Council to guarantee the bonds of the company. The objection I made to the resolution was that it did not follow the terms of section 1 of the New Brunswick Act. Section 1 of the New Brunswick Act provides that :

No swell agreement shall be entered into with any company or corporation for the construction of the 6aid line of railway or the guaranteeing of the said bonds, and no such bonds or debentures shall be guaranteed, unless and until the parliament of Canada shall enact legislation authorizing the granting of a subsidy in aid of the construction of the said railway to the amount of not less than $6,100 per mile, and authorizing the entering by the government of Canada into an independent agreement with such company or corporation and with the government of New Brunswick aforesaid, for the leasing of the 6aid line of railway, when completed, with its appurtenances and rolling stock and for the operation, equipment, maintenance, upkeep and repair by the said government of Canada, as part of the government railway system of Canada for a period of 99 years.

What I wished to have inserted was the word ' equipment.' I understand that the Minister of Public Works and the Minister of Railways objected to the word ' equipment ' being inserted in the resolution, and it is not in the Bill. It seems to me that unless this Bill is made to correspond with the terms of the New Brunswick Act, the Lieutenant Governor in Council of New Brunswick will have no power to guarantee the bonds of the company. *

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LIB

Frank Broadstreet Carvell

Liberal

Mr. CARVELL.

My hon. friend must bs in error. If he will read section 1, he will

find in it these words: ' Including the supply of additional rolling stock from time to time sufficient to handle the traffic as it may arise, maintenance, upkeep and repair.' It seems to me it is all provided in that section. In my opinion the resolution upon which this Bill is founded really followed the legislation of New Brunswick. I may be wrong, but if the Minister of Railways is willing to eliminate the question of initial rolling stock or rather take that away from the company which builds the road, I can see no reason why the Bill should not be agreed to, because the company must, out of its own funds or the funds received from the sale of bonds or the subsidy, provide for equipment as the Bill now stands. All thg Minister of Railways proposes is to eliminate the equipment so that it shall not be necessary for the company to make that expenditure, which makes it that much easier for the company to construct the road and have it operated by the Intercolonial railway.

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CON

Oswald Smith Crocket

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. CROCKET.

My hon. friend from Carleton (Mr. Carvell) will see that these words in section 1 relating to rolling stock and operation are not in accord with the New Brunswick Act; and I do not see how the bonds can be guaranteed by the Governor in Council of New Brunswick until the condition prescribed by section 10 of the New Brunswick Act are fulfilled. That section requires an agreement for the operation, . equipment, maintenance, upkeep and repair by the government of Canada. The first section of this Bill differs from the New Brunswick Act in that it does not provide for the equipment of the railway by the government of Canada.

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LIB

Frank Broadstreet Carvell

Liberal

Mr. CARVELL.

Even by the New Brunswick Act it is not required that the railway shall be equipped by the government of Canada, but that it shall be equipped by the company, and the company will then hand over to the government of Canada the road with its original equipment. This amendment proposes to relieve the company from the necessity of providing the initial equipment, and I cannot see that that would prevent the government of New Brunswick from guaranteeing the bonds.

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LIB

William Pugsley (Minister of Public Works)

Liberal

Mr. PUGSLEY.

This change must -be made with the unanimous consent of the House. Let the hon. member for York (Mr. Crocket) draw an amendment relating to the rolling stock, and let the hon. member for Carleton (Mr. Carvell) draw one, and make them both agree. In the meantime I would suggest that there should be an additional section to accomplish this purpose. Section 1 authorizes the Governor in Council to enter into a contract with any railway, but there is nothing to authorize the railway company to enter into a con-

tract with His Majesty. I, therefore, move that section 2 be added:

Section 2. It shall be lawful for the board of directors of any Tail-way company under the legislative jurisdiction of the parliament of Canada, with -which -the Governor in Council proposes to enter into -the contract provided for in section 1 of this Bill, to execute said contract, and the same, when so executed pursuant .to the order of the said board of directors, shall be legal and binding on the company.

A company ordinarily has not the power to lease its line of railway. This will give that power to any company' with which the Governor in Council enters into a contract.

Topic:   ST. JOHN VALLEY RAILWAY.
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CON

John Graham Haggart

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. HAGGART (Lanark).

Has this company a Dominion charter?

Topic:   ST. JOHN VALLEY RAILWAY.
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LIB

William Pugsley (Minister of Public Works)

Liberal

Mr. PUGSLEY.

Yes. It is under the legislative jurisdiction of the Dominion parliament. I move that the following be inserted as section 2 of the Bill:

I-t shall be lawful for the board of directors -?f any railway company under the legislative jurisdiction of the parliament of Canada with wli-ich the Governor in Council proposes to enter into -the contract provided for under section 1 of this Act to execute such contract and the same when so executed pursuant to the order of such board of directors 6hall be legal and binding on the company.

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CON

John Graham Haggart

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. HAGGART (Lanark).

We do not generally empower the directors to do that without the consent of the stockholders?

-Mr. PUGSLEY. Well, say ' The Board of Directors with the consent of the shareholders.'

Topic:   ST. JOHN VALLEY RAILWAY.
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CON

John Graham Haggart

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. HAGGART (Lanark).

You do not need the unanimous consent?

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LIB

William Pugsley (Minister of Public Works)

Liberal

Mr. PUGSLEY.

Put it in this form:

It shall be lawful for the board of directors of any railway company under legislative jurisdiction of the parliament of Canada with which the Governor in Council proposes to [DOT]enter into the contract provided for in section 1 of this _ Act, -with -the consent of the shareholders given at a meeting duly called for the purpose, to execute such contract, and the same when so executed pursuant to the * order of such board of directors shall .be legal and binding on the company.

Section 2, as amended, agreed to.

Topic:   ST. JOHN VALLEY RAILWAY.
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LIB

George Perry Graham (Minister of Railways and Canals)

Liberal

Mr. GRAHAM.

If my hon. friend from York, New Brunswick (Mr. Crocket), -will read what is proposed to be done, I think he will see that it meets his views and that the government proposes to provide the rolling stock. It is proposed to strike out in line 17 the words, * and rolling stock,' in line 18 the words, ' equipped with initial rolling stock ' and in line 20 the word ' additional,' thus making the section lead:

Mr. PUGSLEY

The said line of railway with its appurtenances -when completed and for -the operation, including the supply -of rolling stock, from time to time sufficient to handle the traffic as it may arise, .maintenance, upkeep and repair by -the government of Canada.

That would make it absolutely clear. Then, in the last line of subsection 3, leave out the words 'and equipped.' That would make it even clearer. Subsection 3 then would read :

Each twenty-five miles thereafter, until the line -be -completed from Grand -Falls to St. John.

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CON

Oswald Smith Crocket

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. CROCKET.

Our only object is that the legislation shall make it clear that the government of Canada shall provide the rolling stock. It may be, as the minister has stated, that the amendment he proposes will have the effect. But, in case there might be some d-ou'bt, I think the safer -course would be to make the provision accord with the language of the New Brunswick Act. Section 1 provides that the Governor in Council of that province could not guarantee the bonds of any company undertaking the construction of this railway until there be an agreement with the government of Canada providing for the operation, equipment, maintenance, upkeep and -repair by the government of Canada. This Bill, in its present form, certainly does not provide for that. What would be the objection to making the provision in the terms of the New Brunswick Act? Then, there -could be no doubt. What I propose is to move that these w-ords be struck out, and that the w-ords of the New Brunswick Act be inserted in lieu thereof.

Topic:   ST. JOHN VALLEY RAILWAY.
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LIB

Frank Broadstreet Carvell

Liberal

Mr. CARVELL.

I think there is one objection to that. The words of the New Brunswick Act are found in Section 11:

For the leasing of the said l-ine of railwav when completed., with its appurtenances and rolling stock, and for the operation, equipment, -maintenance, upkeep and repair by the government of Canada.

The object is to provide that before the government .can enter into this agreement the rolling stock must be provided by somebody. As I understand, it is to be built -by a company and handed over to the government. Of course, the company, under this arrangement, would not wish to provide the rolling stock. If the hon. gentleman will note the word ' rolling stock ' near the bottom of page 41, in the New Brunswick Act, he will see the objection I am raising. Of course, it may be that that would be only an inference, but I am afraid it might be such an inference that some one would say we could not sign that agreement until the rolling stock was there.

8418

MAY 4, 1911 4t

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CON

Oswald Smith Crocket

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. CROCKET.

Under the proper construction of section 11 the bonds cannot be guaranteed until there is an agreement for the equipment, maintenance and operation.

Topic:   ST. JOHN VALLEY RAILWAY.
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LIB

Frank Broadstreet Carvell

Liberal

Mr. CARVELL.

Not by the government of Canada until there is an agreement, *with somebody.

Topic:   ST. JOHN VALLEY RAILWAY.
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LIB

William Pugsley (Minister of Public Works)

Liberal

Mr. PUGSLEY.

With the amendment moved by the Minister of Railways (Mr. Graham) it would read:

And with the government of the province of New Brunswick for the leasing of the said line of railway when completed, with its appurtenances, for the operation, maintenance, equipment, upkeep and repair.

Topic:   ST. JOHN VALLEY RAILWAY.
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CON

Oswald Smith Crocket

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. CROCKET.

If it reads in that way it would answer the purpose.

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May 4, 1911