May 3, 1911

CON

George Taylor

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. TAYLOR (Leeds).

I am not betting.

I am simply challenging the minister to make his statement good.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-RECIPROCAL TRADE WITH THE UNITED STATES.
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LIB

John Gillanders Turriff

Liberal

Mr. TURRIFF.

You will not let him interrupt.

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CON

George Taylor

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. TAYLOR (Leeds).

Perhaps I had better read the words which the minister used on that occasion. He gave these figures. In the month of February there was imported into Canada butter as follows: From Great Britain, 2,800 pounds;

Australia, 15,000 pounds; New Zealand, 181,000 pounds; the United States, 6,000 pounds. Total, 206,472 pounds of butter imported into Canada in February, according to the figures he took from some old blue-book which he had at Washington, and he said that it amounted to three-quarters of an ounce to each man, woman and child. Then he asked how that would affect the butter market. On that butter, however, there is a duty of 3 cents per pound and now the government propose to let it in free. Multiply 206,000 pounds, the amount imported in one month, by twelve, and then multiply the result by sixteen ounces and you get nine ounces for each man, woman and child in Canada, yet the minister said that only three-quarters of an ounce came in for every man, woman and child. That statement is not correct.

Then take eggs. He worked out eggs and said it would give an egg and an eighth to each man, woman and child in Canada. Why in February alone there came into Canada from the United States 719,000 dozens of eggs which paid a duty of 3 cents a dozen. From all countries in that month there came 735,000 dozen eggs and if you multiply that by 12 to get the figure for the year and by 12 to give the number of eggs to the dozen, you get 13i eggs to each man, woman and child, yet the minister says we only imported 1-4. How does that accord with the minister's statement? Here are his words :-

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-RECIPROCAL TRADE WITH THE UNITED STATES.
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LIB

William Paterson (Minister of Customs)

Liberal

Mr. PATERSON.

Reduced to ounces it represents a little over 10,000,000. That is

worse than the butter, because it is an ounce and a quarter for every man, woman and child in this country in a year.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-RECIPROCAL TRADE WITH THE UNITED STATES.
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CON

William Price

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. PRICE.

How many pounds are coming in when the reciprocity agreement' goes through ?

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-RECIPROCAL TRADE WITH THE UNITED STATES.
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LIB

William Paterson (Minister of Customs)

Liberal

Mr. PATERSON.

That is what you will have to make up now with the information you are getting. We got this out of the same blue-books that the hon. gentleman had all the time.

Is that correct? Let me ask the Minister of Customs. He had not the information in the blue-lbooks. Then the debate continued :

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CON

John Dowsley Reid

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. REID (Grenville).

Give us biscuits too.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-RECIPROCAL TRADE WITH THE UNITED STATES.
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LIB

William Paterson (Minister of Customs)

Liberal

Mr. PATERSON.

I agree with what the hon. gentleman (Mr. Price), said, when he candidly admitted that as a lumberman this arrangement was in his favour but he was not sent here to represent his own interests. He took the right view of it. No gentleman ever hears me discussing my own business. I do not think it is very good taste to do so.

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LIB

William Paterson (Minister of Customs)

Liberal

Mr. PATERSON.

Sometimes some hon. gentlemen want to give the impression that, somehow or other, from my being in the ministry and having something to do with framing the tariff, the duty on that article was by that means raised higher than it was under the previous government. Well now, I am not saying anything about it and I do not want to say anything about it, but if hon-gentlemen entertain that idea they are entertaining an absolutely fallacious one, an untrue one, because the fact is that the duty on that article has been reduced.

It is pretty high yet, it is not on the free list under this agreement.

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LIB

William Paterson (Minister of Customs)

Liberal

Mr. PATERSON.

It is not as high as on carriages. .

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-RECIPROCAL TRADE WITH THE UNITED STATES.
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CON

George Taylor

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. TAYLOR. (Leeds).

I will come to carriages, (reading).

It was reduced when we inaugurated our own policy and it is further reduced and largely reduced under this agreement. But, I do not want to talk of my own business. I do not know that it is right. I heard my hon. friend from Yale-Cariboo (Mr. Burrell), and while I sympathize with him if he thinks he is hurt I think it would be better taste for a man to leave the advocacy of business in his own interest to some one who is not connected with it. Therefore you never hear me talk about my own business at all. I find myself maligned. I find statements made in a public manner that give that idea to the people; in fact, it has been absolutely stated in the public prints and I have not taken the trouble to deny it. If it is any fun to hon. gentlemen opposite, if it is a mark of superior wit and wisdom that was manifested by the hon. member for North Toronto (Mr. Foster) -I do not think it elevated his position in the House to undertake to picture me sitting on a biscuit box or something-but if it amuses hon. gentlemen opposite, I am sure that I do not begrudge them the merriment it gives them. I do not think I have said as much Mr. TAYLOR (Leeds).

as this in my life. Of course, I am not connected and I have not been connected in any active way with any business since I took office under my leader,

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L-C

Samuel Hughes

Liberal-Conservative

Mr. HUGHES.

Just a sleeping partner. Mr. PATERSON. I have a little money invested. It has to be invested in something, but as to drawing salary or getting any remuneration, I have never done that. If that company is fortunate enough to have any dividends I hope to share in them the same as you gentlemen do. I do not suppose that you wish me to take what little money I have and wrap it up in a handkerchief.

The bon. gentleman says he has no interest in these biscuits. It is a limited liability Company, he has stock in it. He is not a salaried officer but he may be a director; he has money invested there and it depends on how much that business makes, what the dividend will amount to and if the duty is not kept up he will not draw much dividend. He is a stockholder in a limited lialbility company as he has a perfect right to be but I ask if the passages I have quoted from his speech would indicate that he is a man qualified to go over to the United States to negotiate a reciprocity agreement with the cleverest men in the United States. I am quoting this because he said he was adding it as an appendix to the address of the hon. member for Grenville, so that his oonstitutents and the constituents of all hon. gentlemen opposite might read the speech of a statesman, appended to the speech of the hon. member for Grenville (Mr. Reid). Therefore I quote from it because T purpose having it published and sent to each of my hon. friend's constituents because I know he would not send, it, he would be ashamed of the speech he made that night, ashamed to send it to his constituents as the speech of a statesman.

The hon. gentleman (Mr. Paterson) continued:

I make this statement in the presence of gentlemen. I shall find oUt whether they are gentlemen or not, I shall find out which of them makes ,a suggestion of this kind which carries with it the inference that Paterson is in there in his own interest. I agree with the hon. member for Quebec (Mr. Price), that no man should come here to forward hiis own interests. He is sent here to exercise his hest judgment in the interest of the country. I have told you simply how we conducted these proceedings in Washington and how we arrived at our conclusion. When we were at Washington we knew that last year there were 662,668 pounds of cheese imported into Canada, but iwe knew we exported 180,000,000 pounds,

Where tc? Not to the United States hut to the English market.

and we took it for -granted that in view of this we could bold our own in cheese with the United States. As to potatoes, it is true

C

that while 513,735 bushels were imported last year from all sources, we exported 1,923,595 bushels.

Not to the United States. The hon. gentleman would lead the House to believe that we had exported them to the United States.

We exported 780,000 bushels to the United States, which is 150,000 bushels more than we imported. The Finance Minister told you that he did not think it necessary to have Statistics on alii these things, but we knew about the exports and imports of lumber just as bon. gentlemen apposite could know if they took the trouble to open the blue-books. The hon. gentleman who interrupted me so often knows something about the business, and we knew it too. We knew there was a duty of $1.25 on lumber going into the United States, and we believed from the information we had that it would be a good thing for the lumber interests of this country if without putting a duty on lumber here we could gelt the Americans to take their duty off lumber, and so far as I am concerned I made up my mind that if we got the Americans to do that, I would agree to it, statistics or no statistics.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-RECIPROCAL TRADE WITH THE UNITED STATES.
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CON

William Price

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. PRICE.

Did the hon. gentleman ever consider that the new Congress might possibly make lumber free?

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-RECIPROCAL TRADE WITH THE UNITED STATES.
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LIB

William Pugsley (Minister of Public Works)

Liberal

Mr. PUGSLEY.

What difference does that make?

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CON

William Price

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. PRICE.

It makes all the difference in the world to the lumberman.

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LIB

William Paterson (Minister of Customs)

Liberal

Mr. PATERSON.

If the Democrats should make lumber free, and this agreement goes through

The deputy Speaker then ruled the ' Minister of Customs out of order, but although he was ruled cut of order he went on a little further dealing with the same question. I shall not go further because with what I put on 'Hansard' last night and this addition to-day, I feel that T have said sufficient.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-RECIPROCAL TRADE WITH THE UNITED STATES.
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?

Hon. W@

I thought last night that perhaps the complaint was that I was out of order when I was making these remarks. The question arises whether as the hon. gentleman has spoken to-night and brought this matter up I am entitled to reply.

I did not want to be out of order, but I would like to make one or two remarks.

_ Mr. SPEAKER. I understand, the minister has a perfect right to speak on this point,

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LIB

William Paterson (Minister of Customs)

Liberal

Mr. PATERSON.

The hon. gentleman has thought fit to make some remarks that were offensive. There is no evidence of talent in any one making offensive remarks, therefore, I will not notice them. I want to set him right on one point, so that, if he is going to spread his speech broadcast, it will not look quite so silly when people read it. He quoted some calculations that I had made. I may be

wrong on those calculations, if I am, let any one show that I am wrong, and I will admit it at once. He says I brought down a report which shows that in one month a certain amount of cheese was brought into Canada, and he says if you multiply that amount of cheese by 12 months in the year, you will have a much larger quantity than the minister stated. Well, it would occur to the merest child to ask whether the same amount of cheese, came in in each of the other 11 months. I was quoting from the blue-books, I was quoting from the trade and navigation returns, from the documents we have, giving the returns by the year, and not by the month. In those yearly returns the figures the hon. gentleman mentioned are included.

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CON

George Taylor

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. TAYLOR (Leeds).

No, the returns I gave are for February, 1911, and the year he gave'was the year ending March 31, 1910.

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May 3, 1911