May 2, 1911

LIB

William Pugsley (Minister of Public Works)

Liberal

Mr. PUGSLEY.

I do not like that section. It gives the corporation power to regulate and control all land and property on the water-front. Is it intended to give the Board of Harbour Commissioners the right to say how any man's property on the water-front of Toronto shall be developed? There is another objection; it is that the Crown is the owner of a considerable area of property on the harbour front, and I do not think this Bill should give the Harbour Commissioners the right to say how that property should be developed. I cannot think that it is the intentioin to make the provision as broad as that. This would compel a man who wanted to improve his wharf property that he owns himself, to go to the Harbour Commissioners and get their consent as to how he shall develop that property. It would also prevent the Crown from developing some fifty acres of land that has been reclaimed in the harbour of Toronto in connection with the recent operations for the construction of the western entrance; property which, if developed would be very valuable, and if it could not be developed, would be of very little value. When the draft Bill was submitted to me, and when I objected to certain provisions which were in the Bill for the transference, by virtue of this proposed Act, to the Harbour Commissioners of Crown property, I did not understand that by agreeing to strike out that provision the Harbour Commissioners should still retain control over the Crown property and be able to say in what manner the Crown should develop it. Of course, my remarks apply as well to private property as to Crown property, but I speak in particular for Crown property. The Crown owns 50 acres of land fronting on Toronto harbour.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-THE FARMERS' BANK.
Subtopic:   TORONTO HARBOUR COMMISSION.
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CON

Angus Claude Macdonell

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. MACDONELL (Toronto).

The point which the hon. the Minister of Public Works has just mentioned was fully discussed and considered by the committee, when the Bill was before the committee, and also by the hon. the Minister of Marine and Fisheries (Mr. Brodeur) both prior to the Bill coming before the committee, and after it was before the committee. The Minister of Marine and Fisheries was present at the meeting during the entire session when this Bill was being considered, and the point was then taken that is now taken by the Minister of Public Works. If the Minister of Public Works will refer to subsection 2 of section 21 he will see that the subsection says that:

No by-law shall have force or effect until confirmed by the Governor in Council and published in the 'Canada Gazette/

The words which the chairman has just read, and which amend section 16 now, were added for the express purpose of making it emphatic and plain that all the bylaws which are referred to in section 16 have to be confirmed bv the Governor in Council under subsection 2 of section 21. When we come to that it will be seen that that subsection requires that these by-laws shall toe confirmed by the Governor in Council and published in the 'Canada Gazette.'

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-THE FARMERS' BANK.
Subtopic:   TORONTO HARBOUR COMMISSION.
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LIB

William Pugsley (Minister of Public Works)

Liberal

Mr. PUGSLEY.

It is all very well to say that the by-laws shall be confirmed, but, suppose the commission did not choose to make any by-laws in reference to the development of this Crown property; the Crown could not develop its property at all without getting the consent of the Harbour Commissioners. I do not suggest for a moment that that section was framed with the view of preventing development, but I happen to know that the commissioners would like to get hold of the Crown property, and, although I do not suggest that they would desire to do so, if they could prevent the Crown from developing this property either by leasing it, or making other disposition of it, as we might think in the public interest, it certainly would deteriorate very much the value of the property. My hon. friend the Minister of Marine and Fisheries is not here, and certainly I would think that before this clause should pass he should have an opportunity of expressing his views upon it. This land I speak of was developed, not by the Department of Marine and Fisheries, but by the department over which I preside, and I would hesitate very much indeed, before I would give to the commissioners the power to control our development of that property. Perhaps this clause might stand and we can go on with the others.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-THE FARMERS' BANK.
Subtopic:   TORONTO HARBOUR COMMISSION.
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CON

Angus Claude Macdonell

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. MACDONELL (Toronto).

Quite so; let it stand.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-THE FARMERS' BANK.
Subtopic:   TORONTO HARBOUR COMMISSION.
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LIB

William Pugsley (Minister of Public Works)

Liberal

Mr. PUGSLEY.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-THE FARMERS' BANK.
Subtopic:   TORONTO HARBOUR COMMISSION.
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LIB

Gilbert Howard McIntyre (Deputy Speaker and Chair of Committees of the Whole of the House of Commons)

Liberal

Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER.

Clause 16 stands for further consideration.

Progress reported.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-THE FARMERS' BANK.
Subtopic:   TORONTO HARBOUR COMMISSION.
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GRAIN GROWERS' GRAIN COMPANY, LIMITED.


' House again in committee on Bill (No. 171) to incorporate the Grain Growers' Grain Company, Limited.-Mr. Rutan. On section 13-authorized objects for purposes of the company,


LIB

Honoré Hippolyte Achille Gervais

Liberal

Mr. GERVAIS.

Before the committee proceeds with the examination of this clause there are a few remarks that I wish to make. I think the title of the Bill is rather misleading.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-THE FARMERS' BANK.
Subtopic:   GRAIN GROWERS' GRAIN COMPANY, LIMITED.
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CON

John Dowsley Reid

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. REID (Grenville).

What is the title of the Bill? ~

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-THE FARMERS' BANK.
Subtopic:   GRAIN GROWERS' GRAIN COMPANY, LIMITED.
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LIB

Honoré Hippolyte Achille Gervais

Liberal

Mr. GERVAIS.

The Bill is entitled: ' An Act to incorporate the Grain Growers' Grain Company, Limited.' If the committee looks at sections 14 and 15 of the Bill it will find that grain growing is the least of the occupations that is being sought to be pursued by this incorporation. I beg leave to be allowed to read a few lines of sections 14 and 15 to show that the promoters of this Bill should have called themselves, not ' The Grain Growers' Grain Company, Limited,' but the 'The General Promoters and Schemers' Company, Limited.'

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-THE FARMERS' BANK.
Subtopic:   GRAIN GROWERS' GRAIN COMPANY, LIMITED.
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LIB

George Perry Graham (Minister of Railways and Canals)

Liberal

Mr. GRAHAM.

Prove that.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-THE FARMERS' BANK.
Subtopic:   GRAIN GROWERS' GRAIN COMPANY, LIMITED.
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LIB

Honoré Hippolyte Achille Gervais

Liberal

Mr. GERVAIS.

Well, I will prove it by reading a few lines from section 14.

14. For the objects and purposes set forth in section 13 of this Act, the Company may-

(a) manufacture, buy, sell, deal in and deal with timber, lumber, hardware, bricks, stone, tiles, wood products of all kinds, building material of every description, and all kinds of merchandise and supplies;

(b) manufacture, develop, transmit, distribute and use pneumatic, hydraulic, electric or other power or force for any purpose for which the same may be used, and manufacture, buy, sell and deal in all machinery, implements and material necessary for the manufacture, development, transmission and distribution of pneumatic, hydraulic, electric or other force: Provided, however, that any distribution or transmission of power or force bevond the lands of the company shall be subject to local and municipal regulations in that behalf.

That reminds me of some Bills that have been rejected in former years by the Private Bills Committee.

(c) purchase, acquire, develop, operate, hold, dispose of, or otherwise turn to account timber lands, timber licenses, coal lands, quarries, water-powers, and other lands for the purposes of the company;

(d) subscribe for, purchase or otherwise acquire, and hold, sell or otherwise dispose of

the shares, bonds, debentures or other securities of any bank, or of any printing or publishing company, but in the case of a bank to no greater extent than one-fourth of the capital stock of such bank;

(e) purchase or otherwise acquire, build, operate and charter ships, barges, vessels or other means of transporting passengers and cargo by water;

(f) enter into any arrangement with any authorities, municipal, local or otherwise, that may seem conducive to the company's objects, or any of them, and obtain from any such authority any rights, privileges and concessions which the company may think it desirable to obtain, and carry out, exercise and comply with any such arrangements, rights, privileges and concessions;

I think possibly the company could acquire Indian reserves under this.

(g) acquire or undertake the whole or any part of the business, property and liabilities of any person or company carrying on any business which the company is authorized to carry on or possessed of property suitable for the purposes of the company;

(h) apply for, purchase or otherwise acquire, any patents, licenses, concessions and the like, conferring any exclusive or non-exclusive, or limited rights to use, or any secret or other information as to, any invention which may seem capable of being used for any of the purposes of the company, or the acquisition of which may seem calculated directly or indirectly to benefit the company, and use, exercise, develop or grant licenses in respect of, or otherwise turn to account, the property, rights or information so acquired;

And so it goes on for two pages.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-THE FARMERS' BANK.
Subtopic:   GRAIN GROWERS' GRAIN COMPANY, LIMITED.
Permalink
?

An hon. MEMBER.

Is there anything forgotten?

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-THE FARMERS' BANK.
Subtopic:   GRAIN GROWERS' GRAIN COMPANY, LIMITED.
Permalink
LIB

Honoré Hippolyte Achille Gervais

Liberal

Mr. GERVAIS.

Not very much; they are empowered to do lots of other things. Take paragraph (i) for example:

(i) construct, improve, maintain, work, manage, carry out or control any roads, ways, tramways, branches or sidings on lands owned or controlled by the company, bridges, reservoirs, water-courses, wharfs, manufactories, warehouses, elevators, electric works, shops, stores, office buildings, and other works and conveniences, and contribute to, subsidize, or otherwise assist or take part in, the construction, improvement, maintenance, working, management, carrying out or control thereof.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-THE FARMERS' BANK.
Subtopic:   GRAIN GROWERS' GRAIN COMPANY, LIMITED.
Permalink
CON

Edward Arthur Lancaster

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. LANCASTER.

They have everything but the parliament buildings.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-THE FARMERS' BANK.
Subtopic:   GRAIN GROWERS' GRAIN COMPANY, LIMITED.
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LIB

George Perry Graham (Minister of Railways and Canals)

Liberal

Mr. GRAHAM.

Section (j) is the most useful, they can lend money under it.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-THE FARMERS' BANK.
Subtopic:   GRAIN GROWERS' GRAIN COMPANY, LIMITED.
Permalink
LIB

Honoré Hippolyte Achille Gervais

Liberal

Mr. GERVAIS.

They can do banking by issuing little notes payable to bearer, by receiving deposits, and by lending and borrowing money either by way of mortgage or upon their own paper. It seems to me I repeat, that the company should not be called 'The Grain Growers' Co., Limited,'

but the 'General Promoters and Schemers Co., Limited.'

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-THE FARMERS' BANK.
Subtopic:   GRAIN GROWERS' GRAIN COMPANY, LIMITED.
Permalink
CON

Haughton Lennox

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. LENNOX.

Unlimited.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-THE FARMERS' BANK.
Subtopic:   GRAIN GROWERS' GRAIN COMPANY, LIMITED.
Permalink
LIB

Honoré Hippolyte Achille Gervais

Liberal

Mr. GERVAIS.

Yes.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-THE FARMERS' BANK.
Subtopic:   GRAIN GROWERS' GRAIN COMPANY, LIMITED.
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May 2, 1911