March 14, 1911


lin government, and whose character and business ability cannot be questioned by any Conservative in this House or out of it. He has given his full adhesion to this agreement and has declared himself absolutely opposed to the tactics of the Manitoba legislature and every other machinery put in motion against this contract. I submit that the opinion of Mr. Scallion and of the Grain Growers' Association as represented by Mr. Henders and the other opinions we have seen in the press give us full evidence and full assurance that if any gentleman from Manitoba speaks in this House against this resolution he is not representing the mind of the great province of Manitoba or of the great interests of that province. Now passing through the province of Manitoba I will deal with the resolution that *as before the House in Saskatchewan the other day. I am sure it must have been a startling revelation to our Conservative friends to find so prominent a man as the leader of the opposition of the legislature of that great province coming out fearlessly and openly and declaring himself in favour of this compact. I was in this House in 1905 when there was a great controversy in the west and the great leader in the Conservative party then was Mr. Haultain. He was held up as a great man, but I presume he is no less great a man to-day than he was held to be by the Conservative party in this House when we were asked to follow his lead and take his opinion on the great question in the west in 1905. If he was such a leader then I presume our Conservative friends will be prepared to accept his opinion today. I submit that there is not a man in either of the western provinces who has had a better training in political matters than this hon. gentleman. He was premier of the Northwest Territories for a great number of years and had an opportunity of studying conditions in that country. There is nothing as far as I know or can judge to indicate that he had any other reason in the world for breaking with his party on this subject. I suppose that everything would be the other way. He was the leader of a great party in a great province, and if he had the right end of it by standing by his leaders in this House and in the country I should certainly suppose he would stand by his party. I submit that the evidence is that in coming out in support of this policy he has given his best judgment to what he conceives to be the best interests of his people. In conclusion Mr. Haultain said: We out here are just as able as the magnates in the east to decide what is patriotic and unpatriotic. I am not prepared to sit at the feet of any of these eastern Gamaliels and study loyalty. Mr. McKenzie. . But that is a sweeping indictment by so able a gentleman as the leader of the opposition in Saskatchewan. He is not going to sit at the feet of Gamaliel Borden, Gamaliel Foster or Gamaliel Whitney or any other Gamaliel from the east; he is prepared to take his own course. He would not even follow the lead of our hon. friend Gamaliel Maclean, who has been addressing the House. I suppose he would put him in the same pot as the other Gamaliels and pursue his own course. I am satisfied that so far as the west is concerned we have the judgment and opinion of as good a man as can be put on the stand in favour of this agreement and against those who for party purposes are opposing it. I received from a member for the west this afternoon some evidence that seems to me very striking. In the great province of Saskatchewan they have 51 members, local and dominion. I am told, Sir, on the authority of an hon. member from that province that out of 51 there is only one man who is opposing this contract. That one man is the hon. member for Qu'Appelle (Mr. Lake) in this House. All the rest are in favour of the agreement. That would look as if, should we accept the challenge that is often thrown out to go before the country, that there is at least one province in which we are sure of a very fair majority because there is in that province only one of those who is elected who dare express an opinion against this agreement. I do not think that there is veTy much more I should say in support of this proposal. I have pointed out that everything in the contract which I have read is in favour of the Canadian people and in favour of fair mutual trade relations between the two countries.


CON

Richard Blain

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BLAIN.

How about British Columbia?

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-RECIPROCAL TRADE WITH THE UNITED STATES.
Subtopic:   RESOLUTION BY MANITOBA GRAIN GROWERS.
Permalink
LIB

Daniel Duncan McKenzie

Liberal

Mr. McKENZIE.

I am afraid the hon. member for Peel (Mr. Blain) falls sometimes into the habit of quoting evidence that he is not sure of. I am not going to quote any evidence from British Columbia because I do not happen to have any. I am satisfied to let men speak for British Columbia who know that province better than I do. On general principles I believe that British Columbia is all right. British Columbia is an immense lumbering country and I cannot understand why this arrangement would not be good for that industry. British Columbia is a great coal country and I cannot understand why an arrangement of this kind would not be good for the coal industry. I do not think any man should be called upon to stand for the condition of forcing a trade or industry in a country for which it is not adapted. If there is any condition in British Colum-

*5285

bia which is not suitable to fruit raising, if the conditions are such that a man should give his attention..to something else, or put his capital to better use, I am not going to condemn this agreement because it would perhaps strike a forced situation of that kind, but I say that any industry carried on under conditions that are natural to Canada, that are not forced, should be "suited and assisted by this trade agreement. I hope that the fruit growers of British Columbia will have very much better success in connection with this bargain than they think. If they are trying to raise fruit where they should be raising barley, wheat or cattle, I do not think that they should find any fault if they are obliged to abandon that and go into something that is suited to the province of British Columbia and in which they may have better fortune. I hope their fears will not be realized, and I cannot see any reason why the opening up of a market [DOT]of 90,000,000 or a 100,000,000 people should not put them on a better footing than if they have a market of only 8,000,000 people and a very small part of that 8,000,000 people within range of their trade.

Now, there are some other opinions about this agreement which I wish to quote. These are quotations of hon. members holding seats in this House, and I am afraid that the opinions which these hon. gentlemen have recently expressed haVe not been consistent with those which they expressed at an earlier stage in the session. I quote here an opinion which will be found in ' Hansard ', page 408, 29th of November, 1910. It is the opinion of the hon. member for East Hastings (Mr. Northrup) given while speaking in the debate on the address. He is taking the address paragraph by paragraph and he takes this paragraph:

An arrangement may be made which will admit many of the products of the United States in on satisfactory terms.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-RECIPROCAL TRADE WITH THE UNITED STATES.
Subtopic:   RESOLUTION BY MANITOBA GRAIN GROWERS.
Permalink
CON

George Henry Bradbury

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BRADBURY.

Mr. Speaker, I rise to a point or order. I do not think an hon. member Ts allowed to quote from a past debate in this House.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-RECIPROCAL TRADE WITH THE UNITED STATES.
Subtopic:   RESOLUTION BY MANITOBA GRAIN GROWERS.
Permalink
LIB

Daniel Duncan McKenzie

Liberal

Mr. McKENZIE.

I am not ignorant of this rule, Mr. Chairman, and if my. hon. friend insists upon it, I suppose that I will be obliged not to refer to it.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-RECIPROCAL TRADE WITH THE UNITED STATES.
Subtopic:   RESOLUTION BY MANITOBA GRAIN GROWERS.
Permalink
LIB

Gilbert Howard McIntyre (Deputy Speaker and Chair of Committees of the Whole of the House of Commons)

Liberal

Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER.

A passing reference to a debate at an earlier period of the session would probably not be out of order, but the rule is, that a reference to a previous debate is not in order.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-RECIPROCAL TRADE WITH THE UNITED STATES.
Subtopic:   RESOLUTION BY MANITOBA GRAIN GROWERS.
Permalink
LIB

Daniel Duncan McKenzie

Liberal

Mr. McKENZIE.

Mr. Chairman, if any hon. friend will insist upon it, all I have to say is that this statement was made on the 29th of November last when the hon.

member for East Hastings expressed himself strongly in favour of reciprocity. He assured us that he would hold up both hands in favour of such an arrangement.

I would ask my hon. friend from East Hastings if he will put up one hand in favour of it if it comes to a vote now. In case anybody may think I am not quoting him properly I have taken the page and day when he spoke, so that anybody will see what the hon. gentleman said. The same thing is true of the hon. member for East Huron (Mr. Chisholm) who spoke on November 24, 1910, as reported at pages 258 and 263 of ' Hansard."* The same expression of opinion was given by that hon. gentleman. He thought it would be a splendid thing if we could get it. The only thing that was bothering the hon. member for East Huron was how to get it. He was a man of an independent type-put it before us and I will vote for it! That was the opinion of the hon. member for East Huron. I will expect that the hon. gentleman will show this brand of independence and vote for this agreement if it comps to a vote.

Now, Mr. Chairman, I have quoted a great many opinions but I have quoted none with greater satisfaction and greater faith than the two last opinions, because, judging from what has been going on around me here for the last three weeks, the fiery eloquence of the hon. member for East Hastings denouncing and condemning this agreement in all the^ moods and tenses, I certainly could not think that he had ever expressed a view in favour of the proposal. Then, having discovered this oasis in the desert, I find there are saints in Caesar's house and that from all quarters we are getting support for this agreement. As I said at the commencement it is getting stronger, and gaining strength as the days go by. I am not going to quote from this Manitoba paper called the ' Tribune,' but I will ask any hon. gentleman to look at it. It is a Winnipeg paper of some repute, I believe, it is dated the 6th March, 1911, and at page 4 hon. gentlemen from Manitoba who are interested no doubt in what is going on in that province, will see resolutions passed at different points in Manitoba by which the legislature is condemned and in which members are condemned to their faces, being present at these meetings, for the course they have taken and told emphatically that they misrepresented the people of Manitoba when they took the course they did take in supporting the resolution introduced by the premier of that province.

That is the condition there, and in so far as the maritime provinces, Quebec, and I think the most part of Ontario outside of

the centres which are on party grounds against us now we have nothing to fear and everything to hope from this bargain. I have here a paper called ' Farm and Home ' published in Springfield, Massachusetts, and Chicago which has a circulation of over one million copies in the United States, and on its front page is an editorial stating that this agreement is a bad thing for the American farmer and gives the Canadian farmer much the best of it, and certainly if it is a bad thing lor the American farmer according to this newspaper, it must be a good thing for our agricultural community. I now, Sir, have gone over the ground as fully and as rapidly as I could, but I presume my hon. friend (Mr. Bradbury) who follows me will be obliged to take the same course as I did the other night and adjourn the debate. He must excuse me for having taken up so much time, but I can assure my hon. friend that I would like to have concluded at an earlier hour in the evening. I am satisfied, Sir, that upon every ground this is an excellent ap-eement for the people of Canada, that it gives them opportunities which otherwise they could not have, that it is letting us in on the ground floor of the trade of a great country with a population of 100,000,000, a country that every day is needing a greater supply of the products which we can produce, and a country which before many years will possibly be in the same position as England is to-day, importing enormous quantities of food stuffs while exporting none, and devoting itself entirely to its great manufacturing industries. ' If that should come to pass, and if Canada for many years to come will be a produceir of such commodities as will be required for the supply of this industrial nation to the south, is it not well that we should get in now, and hold that market and develop it, rather than that we should let the opportunity slip, and give a chance to other countries to occupy the field against us. We are told that Argentine grows the same kind of natural products as we do, and is our competitor, and is it not in our interest to see that the Argentine Republic does not get a foothold in the United States market ahead of us. Would it not be a good thing for us to hold that market as against all the world? I can see no ground on which we have anything to fear or anything to lose, but I can see on the other hand that we have everything to gain. Then, so far as our loyalty is concerned I hardly think it is worth while discussing it at all. As I pointed out the other evening, where are they going to find the traitors, where are they going to find the man who will not be true to the British flag? We are getting too old in this country to cast off our allegiance; we are proud of our flag, we are proud of the history and tradi-Mr. McKENZIE.

tions of our country, proud of our institutions, proud of being Britishers. What consolation would I or any other Canadian feel in throwing up our caps on the 4th of July? Surely it would take us a long time to get trained to that. We will not try it, and the American people know better than to try to put that yoke over us. We are willing to trade with them, we are willing to develop with them, we are willing to take advantage of the growth and prosperity that would come to us by reason of that trade, but we shall always be true to Canada, true to our own flag, proud of being part and parcel of the greatest empire the world has even seen, an empire on which the sun never sets. I do not think it is worthy of this parliament to discuss such a question as whether or not we will remain true to our own country. We certainly shall. But, while being true to the British Empire we are also as sensible business men bound to take advantage of every trade opportunity that presents itself to make this a great country commercially, and, Sir, as Canada grows in strength, so grows the strength and the standing of the British Empire.

Mr. BRADBURY moved that the committee rise.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-RECIPROCAL TRADE WITH THE UNITED STATES.
Subtopic:   RESOLUTION BY MANITOBA GRAIN GROWERS.
Permalink

Motion agreed to. On motion of Mr. Fielding, House adjourned at 10.46 p.m.



Wednesday, March 15, 1911.


March 14, 1911