March 14, 1911

LIB

Louis-Philippe Brodeur (Minister of the Naval Service; Minister of Marine and Fisheries)

Liberal

Mr. BRODEUR.

There is no fishing on the St. Lawrence? My hon. friend is mistaken. I know some members of the House who are living on the St. Lawrence, and I think they will say that there is a good deal of fishing on the St. Lawrence. I am sorry that my hon. friend from Leeds (Mr. Taylor) is not here; I think he would tell my hon. friend there is some fishing on that part of the St. Lawrence.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-GRANTS TO VETERANS.
Subtopic:   FISHERIES ON THE GREAT LAKES.
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CON

Oliver James Wilcox

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. WILCOX.

My hon. friend did not understand me. I say there is no fishing on the American side of the Detroit river for the reason that the land is too valuable, it all being city property. There are a couple of fish hatcheries operated by the State Fish Commission. All the fishing is carried on on the Canadian side where the land is not so valuable.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-GRANTS TO VETERANS.
Subtopic:   FISHERIES ON THE GREAT LAKES.
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LIB

Louis-Philippe Brodeur (Minister of the Naval Service; Minister of Marine and Fisheries)

Liberal

Mr. BRODEUR.

I misunderstood the hon. gentleman; I thought he referred to the St. Lawrence. There is no more fishing on the American side of the Detroit river, because the Americans had not the necessary restrictions to preserve the fish. In 1904 we repealed the restrictions which were formerly in effect with the result that the catch of white fish in the Detroit river had fallen from 100,070 pounds a year to 24,000 pounds a year. In 1898 the dore caught in the Detroit river amounted to 12,000 pounds, while in 1908 it was only 6,000 pounds, or a reduction of one-half.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-GRANTS TO VETERANS.
Subtopic:   FISHERIES ON THE GREAT LAKES.
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CON

Oliver James Wilcox

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. WILCOX.

Has not that condition been general on, the Great Lakes with the exception of Lake Erie?

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-GRANTS TO VETERANS.
Subtopic:   FISHERIES ON THE GREAT LAKES.
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LIB

Louis-Philippe Brodeur (Minister of the Naval Service; Minister of Marine and Fisheries)

Liberal

Mr. BRODEUR.

The reason Lake Erie is not depleted, is because I am glad to say that on the American side the state of Ohio had adopted proper regulations for the protection of the fish. But, in the Detroit river there were no regulations on the American side, and our fishermen having asked us to repeal the restrictions on our side, we did so, with the result that the white fish catch fell from 100,000 pounds to 24,000 pounds, and the catch of dore from 12,000 pounds, to 6,000. Well, if we allowed free fishing without any restriction, it would not be long before the fish would disappear altogether.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-GRANTS TO VETERANS.
Subtopic:   FISHERIES ON THE GREAT LAKES.
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CON

Oliver James Wilcox

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. WILCOX.

Does the minister contend that that condition was solely due to the fact that our fishermen were permitted to fish for 4 or 5 weeks in the year?

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-GRANTS TO VETERANS.
Subtopic:   FISHERIES ON THE GREAT LAKES.
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LIB

Louis-Philippe Brodeur (Minister of the Naval Service; Minister of Marine and Fisheries)

Liberal

Mr. BRODEUR.

We prevented fishing during the spawning season, and as the Americans had no restrictions, the result was that the fisheries were depleted in American waters. Last session these regulations were adopted unanimously by this parliament, and not a man in this House dissented to the treaty or to the regulations passed under it. Indeed I may say there was a general feeling of satisfaction that at last we, had reached an agreement with the United States to bring about uniform regulations in international waters. The hon. gentleman, (Mr. Wilcox) takes a small part of the treaty and he says that it will have an injurious effect upon the fishermen of a particular locality. Well, suppose it has, it is only for a time and in the future it is bound to result in the greatest benefit to the ^fishermen of that locality. The treaty will last for four years and the fish in these waters having four years rest, they are bound to replenish, and the fisheries will be still more valuable to the fishermen when this treaty expires. The regulations, though not so severe as I would like to see them, have, nevertheless, for the first time brought the fishery regulations of the United States under the control of a central power which in respect to these contiguous waters, is a most important matter. We adopted these regulations because in the first place they will stop the destruction of spawning whitefish and pickerel in the Detroit river, and no sensible person can take exception to that. I believe that the wise fishermen will say that it is good policy to preserve the spawing grounds. Nay, more, 1 say that if there is a fisherman who is opposed to preserving the spawning grounds, it would be just as well to protect such a man against himself, because he does not know what his best interests are. The second reason for our adopting the regulations is that we may stop the destruction of immature fish which are found in large quantities in the nets in narrow waters like the _ Detroit river, and the catching of which is of no benefit to the fisherman. The third reason is to restore the more valuable species of fish by stopping netting for market during the four years this treaty is in force. I am quite sure that during these four years the fish will be replenished in these waters as they have in other waters where similar regulations existed, and at the end of that period the fisheries will be more valuable to the fishermen than ever before. Now, we need white fish eggs for the hatcheries, Mr. BRODEUR.

and the hon. gentleman admits that hatcheries are a good thing. I am not at all in accord with the views expressed by some American writers, that if you have a sufficient number of hatcheries, you have no need for a license system or a close season or regulation as to the size of the mesh, because the hatcheries will, of themselves, replenish the fisheries. I believe that while the regulations adopted by the commissioners are not up to the standard I would like to see, yet they are a step in the right direction, and I am surprised that .there are Canadians who enter objection to them in any form whatever. I may say that the regulations to which my hon. friend (Mr. Wilcox) takes exception, are not yet in force. The parliament of Canada has unanimously passed a law empowering the Governor in Council, to put these regulations in force when the American authorities have adopted similar regulations. Unfortunately the matter is not yet disposed of. I must say, however, to tne credit of the President of the United States, that some time ago I had a conference with the authorities of the Department of State with regard to this question of enforcing our regulations, and I was promised that in a short time a message would be sent to the Congress suggesting the adoption of those regulations. I am glad to say, from information that I have received, that the President of the United States has sent such a message to the Congress, but unfortunately it was so late in the session that the necessary legislation was not passed; but I hope that this will be done in the next session. I repeat that if my hon. friend wants to be the friend of the fishermen-and I believe he does and is sincere in his motives- let him work with us in the effort to preserve these fisheries which are now so greatly depleted. If we left matters to go on as they are now going, in a.few years, though there might be some fishermen, there would be no fisheries. I think that is not a condition which my hon. friend wants to see in the Detroit river. Let him work with us in the framing of such regulations as are necessary to preserve the fisheries, and if we are successful in having those regulations adopted by the United States authorities, they will be of the greatest benefit to the vast fisheries of this Dominion.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-GRANTS TO VETERANS.
Subtopic:   FISHERIES ON THE GREAT LAKES.
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CON

Oliver James Wilcox

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. WILCOX.

Mr. Speaker, my hon. friend

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-GRANTS TO VETERANS.
Subtopic:   FISHERIES ON THE GREAT LAKES.
Permalink
LIB

James Kirkpatrick Kerr (Speaker of the Senate)

Liberal

Mr. SPEAKER.

The hon. gentleman cannot speak a second time on this motion except by the general consent of the House.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-GRANTS TO VETERANS.
Subtopic:   FISHERIES ON THE GREAT LAKES.
Permalink
CON

Oliver James Wilcox

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. WILCOX.

I just wish to say that the hon. minister expresses the view that I find fault with the general application of these regulations. I will agree with him that it is a good thing for oanada to have a uniform set of regulations with the United

States; but I find fault with the way in which they apply to the Detroit river.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-GRANTS TO VETERANS.
Subtopic:   FISHERIES ON THE GREAT LAKES.
Permalink
LIB

Louis-Philippe Brodeur (Minister of the Naval Service; Minister of Marine and Fisheries)

Liberal

Mr. BRODEUR.

Why discriminate between the Detroit river and the St. Mary's, the St. Clair or the St. Lawrence?

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-GRANTS TO VETERANS.
Subtopic:   FISHERIES ON THE GREAT LAKES.
Permalink
CON

Oliver James Wilcox

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. WILCOX.

For this reason, that on the south side of the county of Essex the fishermen have a right to fish in Lake Erie as they have always had, while on the north side of the county of Essex, where the fishermen have enjoyed the same privilege, they are now deprived of it. It is only that part of the regulation that applies to the Detroit river that I object to. The hon. minister referred to the question of fishing on the spawning beds. There is a great difference of opinion on the part of the experts on that question. We have high authority in the United States for saying that the best way to propagate these fish is to catch them on the spawning beds and place them in the hatcheries and have the young fry hatched out there.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-GRANTS TO VETERANS.
Subtopic:   FISHERIES ON THE GREAT LAKES.
Permalink

CAPITALIZATION OF RAILWAYS.

IND

William Findlay Maclean

Independent Conservative

Mr. W. F. MACLEAN (South York).

*or for the discharge or lawful refunding of its obligations, provided and not otherwise that there shall have been secured from the proper commission an order authorizing such issue, and the amount thereof and stating that, in the opinion of the commission, the use of the capital to be secured by the issue of such stock, bonds, notes or other evidence of indebtedness is reasonably required for the said purposes of the corporation, but_ this provision shall not apply to any lawful issue of stock, to the lawful execution and delivery of any mortgage or to the lawful issue of bonds thereunder, which shall have been duly approved by the Board of Railroad Commissioners before the time when this Act become^ the law. For the purpose of enabling it to determine whether it should issue such an order, the commission shall make such inquiry or investigation, hold such hearings, and examine such witnesses, books, papers, documents or contracts as it may deem of importance in enabling it to reach a determination.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-GRANTS TO VETERANS.
Subtopic:   CAPITALIZATION OF RAILWAYS.
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CON

Robert Laird Borden (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BORDEN (Halifax).

Does that apply purely to increase of capital?

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-GRANTS TO VETERANS.
Subtopic:   CAPITALIZATION OF RAILWAYS.
Permalink
IND

William Findlay Maclean

Independent Conservative

Mr. MACLEAN (York).

No new capital of any kind can be secured without the authority from this commission. The railway company show that this increase is necessary for the extension of the road.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-GRANTS TO VETERANS.
Subtopic:   CAPITALIZATION OF RAILWAYS.
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CON

Robert Laird Borden (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BORDEN (Halifax).

Suppose a new railway is organized in New York state for the building of a new line, would the provisions of this statute apply to its initial capital?

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-GRANTS TO VETERANS.
Subtopic:   CAPITALIZATION OF RAILWAYS.
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IND

William Findlay Maclean

Independent Conservative

Mr. MACLEAN (York).

Yes to everything. Not one dollar of capitalization, no security not even a note issue extending over 12 months, can be issued without the approval of this commission.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-GRANTS TO VETERANS.
Subtopic:   CAPITALIZATION OF RAILWAYS.
Permalink
LIB

Wilfrid Laurier (Prime Minister; President of the Privy Council)

Liberal

Sir WILFRID LAURIER.

If a railway is organized in the state of New York, who authorizes the issue of capital?

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-GRANTS TO VETERANS.
Subtopic:   CAPITALIZATION OF RAILWAYS.
Permalink
IND

William Findlay Maclean

Independent Conservative

Mr. MACLEAN (York).

This railway

commission also. That does not come within the jurisdiction of the state legislature at all.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS-GRANTS TO VETERANS.
Subtopic:   CAPITALIZATION OF RAILWAYS.
Permalink

March 14, 1911