February 14, 1911

FRUIT AND VEGETABLE GROWERS' ASSOCIATION.

CON

Frederick Debartzch Monk

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. MONK.

Before the orders of the day are called, I would like to ask the government if it intends placing before the House, as it did in the case of the farmers' delegation, all the papers and statements presented by the important delegation of fruit growers and vegetable growers which came here the other day. I have had several demands for a report of the proceedings, and I see that the government has placed a similar report of the farmers' delegation before the House.

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LIB

Wilfrid Laurier (Prime Minister; President of the Privy Council)

Liberal

Sir WILFRID LAURIER.

I see no objection at all, and will move accordingly.

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THE DECLARATION OF LONDON.

CON

Frederick Debartzch Monk

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. MONK.

I would also like to ask my right hon. friend if he has come to a conclusion with respect to an order of the House, made the other day, regarding the declaration of London. At that time he said he would see whether the communication from the imperial government on that subject was confidential, but I see since then that the declaration of London has been communicated to Australia, and that the Australians have sent a protest to the English government against the adoption of the declaration. I presume we will have the same advantage.

Topic:   THE DECLARATION OF LONDON.
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THE LONG SAULT DAM.

CON

Robert Laird Borden (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BORDEN (Halifax).

I would like to ask whether it would be possible to have the communications between this government and the British ambassador at Washington, which would naturally form part of the return moved for some time ago, brought down at an early date. I appreciate what my right hon. friend has said, that, as regards the whole return, the preparation must take some time, but I see no reason why a partial return of those communications that are easily accessible should not be brought down at once.

Topic:   THE LONG SAULT DAM.
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LIB

Wilfrid Laurier (Prime Minister; President of the Privy Council)

Liberal

Sir WILFRID LAURIER.

About the Long Sault?

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CON
LIB

Wilfrid Laurier (Prime Minister; President of the Privy Council)

Liberal

Sir WILFRID LAURIER.

Certainly. I have no objection.

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PORK PACKING INDUSTRY.

CON

Richard Blain

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BLAIN.

May I ask whether there would be any objection to having the views of the pork packing industry, a delegation from which interviewed the government yesterday, submitted to the House, so that we may have full knowledge of their statements?

Topic:   PORK PACKING INDUSTRY.
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LIB

Wilfrid Laurier (Prime Minister; President of the Privy Council)

Liberal

Sir WILFRID LAURIER.

No objection whatever. Everything will be brought down.

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RECIPROCAL TRADE WITH THE UNITED STATES.


House in Committee of Ways and Means.


CON

George Eulas Foster

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. FOSTER.

The most important factor in the development ,and progress of any country is its productions in kind and variety. The twin factors which aid in producing are capital and labour, and I propose, for a few moments, to consider what will be the effect of the proposal before us in respect of the productions of Canada and their co-operative factors, capital and labour. As I have already said_, we are disposed to pay too much attention to the figures of trade, which, after

all, are but indexes of something which is basic and fax more important. . In all the foreign trade of Canada there are two productions, as far as geographical distribution is concerned-one of them in Canada and one outside Canada-and the one production is exchanged fox the other. But the interprovincial trade is infinitely more important than foreign trade, as indexed by the foreign trade figures, because in the former all the products .are made in Canada and the elements necessary to production are furnished and operated in Canada itself. The aim and object of this country for the last 40 years has been, as far as possible, to stimulate the number of productions in Canada itself, which usually form the article of exchange between the different parts of the country and to diminish as far as possible- and it is only possible relatively to diminish them-the productions of outside countries required in exchange for the ipro-ductions of Canada. That is to transfer, as far as possible, all the elements of labour and capital and profit which go towards making up foreign productions, to transfer these to some section, province, or pari of Canada where they shall be sent out and shipped for other productions in Canada made in some other province,

section or part of Canada. To-day, when I read the American papers and scan the American speeches, and look at the American arguments, I do not find that they are saying very much as to the employment of American capital in the establishing of American industries in Canada. In the past and present condition of things we have noticed that as a factor, and a very important one, in the development of this countrv. It is stated, and I think without doubt, that at least $226,000,000 have been transferred in equipment and plant from factories in the United States towards the establishment of branch factories in the Dominion. Senator Beveridge, deploring that fact, substantiates it, but wonders whether it would not be much better for the United States, instead of transferring branch factories to the Dominion, to bring about a condition of tariffs, in which it would not be necessary for these American industries to transfer branches beyond the line. And Governor Fcss, another very strong advocate of this reciprocity arrangement, deplores the same fact, and says that if it goes on hundreds of millions more will be so transferred, and he thinks the time has come for the United States of America to accept Canada's offer, make the way easy and clear between the two countries and thereby keen the production, the capital, the labour an9 profits, the homebuilding and wealthmaking in the United States, instead of transferring it to Canada.

Why are they solicitous for this trade Mr. FOSTER.

treaty with Canada? It looks out upon every page of their argument ; it slips oft the tongue of every advocate of the pro posal. It is that the United States of America covets the rich natural resources of the Dominion of Canada-covets these resources not with a view to coming where the resources are, bringing labour and capital, and working them up where they exist; not that, but covets them to draw them away to their own manufacturing industries, to the centres of their own country, to make them up with their own labour to their own profit, directly and with all the subsidiary gain which accrues to manufacturing in the United States. ' How will they get these raw resources ' ? you say. Well, Sir, outside of what they already owrn in this country-and they own, prob ably, more than any one who has not looked into quite understands-this arrangement will not have been in operation for five years before the big trusts and moneyed interests of the United States^ will own everything that is loose in this Dominion in the way of great natural resources. What they do not wish to buy from the man in Canada who raises it or digs it from the mine, they will raise and dig on their own properties under their own direction in this country. They will have these natural resources, they will command them. And, as I have said, I want the people of Canada to keep this in mind-that the object in all this is not to work up the raw materials in Canada but to work them up in the United States of America. They will allow me cheaper and less skilled and less concentrated operations of labour to be performed in Canada, but the better paid, the more skilled, the more aggregated, are to be carried on in the United States. They will let Canadians take out the ore, catch the fish, fell the trees, raise the cattle and other stock, do the mechanical and exhausting farming work -and-all the rougher processes of industry ; but all the progressive processes of perfecting the raw material with all that pertains to those processes, and the distribution of them with all the profits that pertain thereto, these they covet for themselves. And the tendency of this arrangement is to put it within their power to carry out this purpose.

What I want to ask is this : Of what particular benefit will that be to the Dominion of Canada? You say : It is not possible for them to take away all the raw material. I do not press the argument that far ; but I do say that the tendency is and will be to draw, as far as possible, the rawer resources of Canada to their centres and work them uip there. And that they will do more and more, and in larger proportion as the years go by. I say that the broad effect of this agreement if it is to foe as sue-

cessful as these advocates argue, will

be to leave the rawer rougher processes of the work, the digging, the mining, the felling, the collecting, all the processes of common labour at lesser wages, to the people of Canada, and as few as possible of the perfecting, more highly-paid and better-conditioned processes to the United Slates of America.

If that be true, what is the first effect? The first effect is to exhaust, in proportion to what they draw from us, the natural resources of the Dominion of Canada and to husband what they have left of their own resources as far as they possibly can for future generations ; to take away from Canadians the higher and better processes of development in their own'country, and to transfer these to the United States. Here is a general tendency, which, in its beginnings, has already been carried out with all the intense vigour, the enterprise, the skill, the money power which lies in the United 'States of America. I ask any one to settle with himself whether this is for the future good of this country as an independent nation or whether it is not. I appeal to every man who is not so thoroughly impregnated with the commercial spirit that he would say, as the Minister of Customs (Mr. Paterson) did the other day : Wherever we see a raw resource in this country, for Heaven's sake let it loose and send it to the United States, and let them work it up there, so long as we get the money for the raw material itself-I appeal to every man who is not so impregnated with commercial spirit, but who believes somewhat in the idea of the trusteeship of the present generation for future generations, whether it is not worth while to think, and think deeply, before we set ourselves irrevocably on the stream which leads us down with resistless current to the future which I have but dimly and poorly pictured.

How is capital to be affected iby this? And how is labour to be affected by this? For forty years we have had a fairly stable policv in this country. The national idea came to birth in 1867 and it has ruled in this country from 1867 to this day. The national spirit carried with it the National Policy. And the national spirit and the Rational Policy appealed to the capital of the old country and of other countries, on the ground that this was to be a national development under a settled policy. And capital, which is eminently sensitive, which looks long before it invests itself, has gradually invested itself in the great public *works and important national enterprises of Canada until to-day $1,800,000,000 of British capital lies m our great routes of transport and the public undertakings of this county* Under what conditions was that placed there? Take the capital invested

in your east and west lines of communication, was it ever dreamed in Britain, Sir, that the time would come when a change of policy would be inaugurated iby the men who petitioned for the money, who plead for the investment of capital and got it at long last, was it ever dreamed that when this capital was securely fixed and invested, the long lateral lines of railway should be tapped every few miles by communication to draw off the trade intended for them to southern routes and do away with the long haul of the east-and-west lines?

So this proposition of the Finance Minister absolutely changes the conditions of all capital that has been invested in that way, invested from Great Britain in our great national concerns. In those times we wanted money, and our credit, though good, was based more upon hope than fulfilment; it was what we expected to happen in this country upon which we made our appeal for finances, to bring what we expected to birth and to fruitage. But, Sir, as the years went on, and expectations began to be fulfilled, that stream of money widened and deepened, and to-day it is coming into this country from Great Britain at the rate of $150,000,000 a year, and increasing from year to year. The men who have their money fixed in it have to stand the new conditions, thev cannot get their investments out. Canadians have not been simply trying to get investments in the past, but they have, as we know, been endeavouring to make the flow deeper and more plentiful into this country for the ever ripening and recurring development which it is necessary for us to make in a new country like ours. How will this instrument affect capital that has not come, that is ready to come, but which, under doubt and uncertainty, will hesitate to come and invest itself in this country ? I do not follow that out any further, it is not necessary.

Let me state another thing: That just as the flag follows trade, just so labour follows capital, and capital is going to be sensitive and careful of investing itself in this country on account of the unstable conditions which are imported by this arrangement, and will go to the side where there is the largest population, where there is the greatest market, where there is the greatest fixity and stability of financial conditions. For you find no intimation amongst the powers that be, or the powers that are to be, in the United States, that while they are quite willing, for purposes which I shall hereafter disclose, to open the barriers and to make free trade between Canada and the United States, they are at all disposed to throw any barriers down against the rest of the world. They do not intend to do it. Then, Sir, the invest-

come in not only theoretically but practically with the ability to send large exportations into the Dominion, free, or at a modified rate of duty. Animals, grains, vegetables, fruits, butter, cheese, fish, salt and other articles can come in from Argentine, Austro-Hungary, France and Algeria, Norway. Russia, Switzerland and some other countries. With that superior smile which more frequently graces the face of my right hon. friend the Prime Minister when he labours for lack of information than otherwise, the Prime Minister rather smiles now at I suppose the silliness of my argument; nevertheless each man has to make his argument according to his light, and each man has a perfect right to judge of it as he wishes.

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LIB

Wilfrid Laurier (Prime Minister; President of the Privy Council)

Liberal

Sir WILFRID LAURIER.

And to smile also.

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CON

George Eulas Foster

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. FOSTER.

My right hon. friend can smile and take a smile for all I care; I won't quarrel with that. But what is more important-and now perhaps my right hon. friend will rather want to take a.smile than to smile-what does happen is this, and it is rather an important point it seems to me. I want to remind my right hon. friend of a statement made in cold blood by the Prime Minister of Canada; a statement which he is supposed to have known the meaning of, and which no honourable statesman would fail to carry out. Sitting in that chair the other day, he said to the 1,500 that were interviewing him: Gentlemen, I am sorry you come too late; if you had come a few weeks before, why, we could have interchanged opinions and you could have had your questions taken up. Afterwards, hearing some of these gentlemen talk, one said to the other: Oh, well you see, this is the misery of the thing, we did not come early enough; did'nt you hear what the Prime Minister said; if we had come earlier we would have got all we wanted maybe. Yes-said the other, did'nt we have the Prime Minister's pledge as a public man and a gentleman that he did'nt propose to make any adjustment and revision of the tariff until he had appointed a tariff commission? I thought the answer was a good one. I make the same answer to my right hon. friend here to-day. Why did he make that promise and why did he fail to fulfil it? Why did he pledge himself in the west and pledge himself here in this House of Commons in the early part of the session unless he honestly intended to abide by the pledge? In reply to my hon., friend the leader of the opposition, he said:

I stated that we would have a commission of investigation before we undertook a revision of the tariff. Does any member on the other side of the House take issue with the promise I make. Would any of them advocate Mr. FOSTER.

rushing into a revision of the tariff without previous investigation. Hon. members may laugh at that but they will dare not to say that they would favour such a course.

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L-C
CON

George Eulas Foster

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. FOSTER.

at British preference, and I want no better corroborative argument than this, namely, the joy that broke out in the British House of Commons among the anti-tariff reformers when this news came to them, which, it was declared, dished tariff reform in Great Britain forever and aye. This is how imperial preference has been treated.

The preference being destroyed, the hopes of preference with the United Kingdom being dished, we shall be more and more impelled to join our fortunes in trade with the United States. That is the way the argument and the circumstances work. I notice that my

'hon. friend, the Finance Minister, in the closing part of his speech the other day, dilated upon what good this would be to the United States, and also to the people of Canada, but he was significantly silent as to any good it would work out to the empire. That part of the argument evidently appeared to his mind as not in keeping with the proposition he was laying before the House.

I lay on the table a list of the rates, the importations, the preference reduction that has been made, not of all the articles, but I have picked out a number of them :

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February 14, 1911