January 20, 1911

LIB

William Stewart Loggie

Liberal

Mr. LOGGIE.

Mr. Speaker, I desire to ask the Minister of Marine and Fisheries whether there is a close season when herring traps cannot be used, or does the season extend over the whole year? I desire also to ask him, what is the maximum length of the leader from the shore to the bowl of the trap? As I understand, the herring trap is one which takes all kinds of fish frequenting our waters, including mackerel and salmon, which are fish of great commercial value to Canada. With respect to salmon, there is a close season, when Canadians fishing in purely Canadian waters cannot take them even under license, and I would like to ask the minister, can the American or Canadian, as the case may be, fish for salmon on the Labrador coast, or the Magdalen Islands coast at a season when it. is not legal to take salmon in the other coastal waters of the Gulf of St. Lawrence? This is a very important matter which may very seriously affect the fishing interests in purely Canadian waters. I quite realize that the concessions given to our United States friends are equal to those given to Canadians who go to fish in those dual waters; but at the same time I would draw the minister's attention to the fact that licensing the American citizen gives him a prior right in placing his trap, and, as I understand, the leader of this trap extends practically to the shore, so that to all intents and purposes he has privileges which a Canadian has not in purely Canadian waters. For example, I understand that mackerel traps are practically prohibited along the St. Lawrence coast. There is one on the north coast of Prince Edward Island, but it is the only one, so far as I am aware, in the Gulf of St. Lawrence. It is under a heavy license fee, and it was there for many years before the licensing plan was in vogue. So that mackerel traps are practically not allowed in the purely Canadian coastal waters of the Gulf of St. Lawrence, whereas we are now licensing, in the coast waters of Labrador and the Magdalen Islands, a trap which is to all intents and purposes a mackerel trap, and which will also take salmon, which I believe frequent those waters, especially the Labrador coast, in large quantities, and at a season when our own fishermen are not allowed to take them. I think it only fair that the minister's attention should be brought to these facts.

Topic:   SUPPLY-CLOTHING OF DISCHARGED CONVICTS.
Subtopic:   FISH POACHERS ON PACIFIC COAST.
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LIB

Louis-Philippe Brodeur (Minister of the Naval Service; Minister of Marine and Fisheries)

Liberal

Mr. BRODEUR.

I do not know whether my hon. friend has seen the regulations

which have been adopted as a result of the negotiations with the United States authorities; but I can assure him that all the fears he expresses as to rights being given to Americans which are not going to be enjoyed by Canadians, may be discarded. There has been no change in the regulations which will in any shape or form be prejudicial to the salmon industry or to Canadian fishermen. The regulations which provide for a close season for salmon are still maintained, and the regulations which provide that traps must be made in such a way as not to affect the ascent of the salmon are also maintained. The changes, which are not of great importance, my>

hon. friend calls concessions to the Americans. The right we have given to Americans to get licenses is not a concession granted by us. It is a right which they had under the treaty of 1818. As a matter of fact, they were claiming that they had an absolute right to fish in those waters without any license at all. The hon. Minister of Justice quoted yesterday a despatch sent by the Foreign Office in 1906 to the effect that Newfoundland, and it applied also to Canada, had no right under that treaty to impose any license fee on American fishermen. That treaty gives them the right to fish on the Labrador coast and the Magdalen Islands coast in common with British subjects, and it was contended by the American authorities that we could not impose upon them a restriction in the form of a license. This claim certainly deserves a great deal of consideration, and, as the Minister of Justice said yesterday, was accepted by the Foreign Office. 'So I thought the other day, when the American authorities were willing to accept a license from us, thus virtually recognizing our right to issue a license, it was something of the utmost importance to Canada, because our licensing system is of great value for the preservation of our fisheries. The American experts who were there, after hearing the reasons adduced in favour of maintaining our licensing system, considered it a very fair one which is tantamount to their admission that the way we have been managing our fisheries is certainly commendable. My hon. friend asks what length will be the leaders. It was provided in the regulations, previous to the agreement made the other day, that all the leaders should start from the shore. The American authorities contended with a great deal of reason-I think they were right in that respect-that this was prejudicial to their rights on the treaty coast, because if our regulations provided that all the leaders should start from the shore, and if they had no right to go to the shore under the treaty, they meant that they could not put traps there where Canadians were permitted to put them, which would be discriminating. This struck me as a Mr. BRODEUR.

fair contention, and we tried to meet it by declaring that if the leader should start from the shore, then the length would be determined by our * fishery officers and not by anybody else, and our officers determine the length of the leader by the depth of the water. I think that by all these changes which have been made my hon. friend may feel assured that we have not departed in any shape or form from the principle underlying our regulations, and that the mackerel as well as the salmon fisheries will be just as well preserved under the changes made as they were under the regulations which existed before.

Topic:   SUPPLY-CLOTHING OF DISCHARGED CONVICTS.
Subtopic:   FISH POACHERS ON PACIFIC COAST.
Permalink
LIB

William Stewart Loggie

Liberal

Mr. LOGGIE.

The minister has said that the length of the leader is to be determined by the fishery officer. Should the applicant say I want a leader only 100 yards from the shore, then the trap must be at the end of the leader, which would be simply one hundred yards from the shore. That is a point worthy of consideration. Regarding the protection of our salmon, the minister tells us that the close season will not be changed. That is not the question with me, as I understand it. The season for fishing the herring traps is all the year round, if the owner could fish all the year in spite of the weather. Therefore, if a trap catches salmon, and the owner is allowed to use the salmon, there is practically no close season for the salmon caught in the trap.

Topic:   SUPPLY-CLOTHING OF DISCHARGED CONVICTS.
Subtopic:   FISH POACHERS ON PACIFIC COAST.
Permalink
LIB

Louis-Philippe Brodeur (Minister of the Naval Service; Minister of Marine and Fisheries)

Liberal

Mr. BRODEUR.

Any fish caught in the close season contrary to the regulations is supposed to be caught illegally, and has to be thrown away.

Topic:   SUPPLY-CLOTHING OF DISCHARGED CONVICTS.
Subtopic:   FISH POACHERS ON PACIFIC COAST.
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CON

Clarence Jameson

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. JAMESON.

I understood the minister to say that certain regulations had been framed as the result of this memo entered into by the American and Canadian authorities. If that is the case, may I ask whether those will be available to members and when w'e can have them?

Topic:   SUPPLY-CLOTHING OF DISCHARGED CONVICTS.
Subtopic:   FISH POACHERS ON PACIFIC COAST.
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LIB

Louis-Philippe Brodeur (Minister of the Naval Service; Minister of Marine and Fisheries)

Liberal

Mr. BRODEUR.

They will be brought dtfwn Monday.

Topic:   SUPPLY-CLOTHING OF DISCHARGED CONVICTS.
Subtopic:   FISH POACHERS ON PACIFIC COAST.
Permalink

Motion agreed to, and House went into Committee of Supply.


LIB

William Pugsley (Minister of Public Works)

Liberal

Mr. PUGSLEY.

The hon. member for St. Anne (Mr. Doherty) asked that the item relating to the Montreal barracks should stand, so we will pass to the Ontario items.

Public Works-Buildings, Ontario-Athens public building, $5,000.

Topic:   SUPPLY-CLOTHING OF DISCHARGED CONVICTS.
Subtopic:   FISH POACHERS ON PACIFIC COAST.
Permalink
LIB

William Pugsley (Minister of Public Works)

Liberal

Mr. PUGSLEY.

I find that the postal revenue of this town last year was $2,152.63, money orders issued, $17,482.56, money orders paid $9,630.94. The population two years ago was 1,000. It is quite a rapidly growing town, has six churches, fourteen stores, two hotels, lumber mill and two planing mills and woollen factory among other industries. This will not complete.

Topic:   SUPPLY-CLOTHING OF DISCHARGED CONVICTS.
Subtopic:   FISH POACHERS ON PACIFIC COAST.
Permalink
CON

Uriah Wilson

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. WILSON (Lennox).

Is this just for a post office?

Topic:   SUPPLY-CLOTHING OF DISCHARGED CONVICTS.
Subtopic:   FISH POACHERS ON PACIFIC COAST.
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LIB

William Pugsley (Minister of Public Works)

Liberal

Mr. PUGSLEY.

Yes. Mv instructions to the chief architect are to keep the cost of this building in the vicinity of $13,000 or $14,000. It will not exceed $15,000.

Topic:   SUPPLY-CLOTHING OF DISCHARGED CONVICTS.
Subtopic:   FISH POACHERS ON PACIFIC COAST.
Permalink
CON

Adam Brown Crosby

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. CROSBY.

Does that include the site?

Topic:   SUPPLY-CLOTHING OF DISCHARGED CONVICTS.
Subtopic:   FISH POACHERS ON PACIFIC COAST.
Permalink
LIB

William Pugsley (Minister of Public Works)

Liberal

Mr. PUGSLEY.

Yes.

Mr. 'CROSBY. Has the hon. minister had any requisition from the Post Office Department for this building as being required for the work of the department?

Topic:   SUPPLY-CLOTHING OF DISCHARGED CONVICTS.
Subtopic:   FISH POACHERS ON PACIFIC COAST.
Permalink
LIB

William Pugsley (Minister of Public Works)

Liberal

Mr. PUGSLEY.

Not from the Post Office Department. I may say, however, that my attention was called by the Minister of Railways and Canals (Mr. Graham), in whose constituency this town is situated, to the very great need of post office accommodation there. My hon. friend no doubt is aware that the department allows a small amount to the postmaster to enable him to secure accommodation. The people of Athens have been urging, so the Minister of Railways informs me, that increased accommodation be given them, and he hoped it would be possible to make an arrangement with a banking company which was going to erect a building there so that my department should pay a portion of the rent necessary to get increased accommodation. However, the matter fell through, and I decided to ask for a vote for a building not to cost a great deal of money but one that would be suitable to the needs of the town.

Topic:   SUPPLY-CLOTHING OF DISCHARGED CONVICTS.
Subtopic:   FISH POACHERS ON PACIFIC COAST.
Permalink
CON

George Eulas Foster

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. FOSTER.

Here is a post office erected solely for the business of the Post Office Department. After it is erected who pays for the renting expenses of that building ?

Topic:   SUPPLY-CLOTHING OF DISCHARGED CONVICTS.
Subtopic:   FISH POACHERS ON PACIFIC COAST.
Permalink
LIB

William Pugsley (Minister of Public Works)

Liberal

Mr. PUGSLEY.

The Department of Public Works.

Topic:   SUPPLY-CLOTHING OF DISCHARGED CONVICTS.
Subtopic:   FISH POACHERS ON PACIFIC COAST.
Permalink
CON

George Eulas Foster

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. FOSTER.

Is that the case all through ?

Topic:   SUPPLY-CLOTHING OF DISCHARGED CONVICTS.
Subtopic:   FISH POACHERS ON PACIFIC COAST.
Permalink
LIB

William Pugsley (Minister of Public Works)

Liberal

Mr. PUGSLEY.

Yes.

Topic:   SUPPLY-CLOTHING OF DISCHARGED CONVICTS.
Subtopic:   FISH POACHERS ON PACIFIC COAST.
Permalink
CON

George Eulas Foster

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. FOSTER.

The Department of Public Works does not require a building, but the minister, without consultation with the Postmaster General erects a post office building for post office business and then assumes the cost of that building after its erection. Does the rental now paid for post office accommodation there fall into the revenue of the post office?

Topic:   SUPPLY-CLOTHING OF DISCHARGED CONVICTS.
Subtopic:   FISH POACHERS ON PACIFIC COAST.
Permalink
LIB

William Pugsley (Minister of Public Works)

Liberal

Mr. PUGSLEY.

No, that rental will cease. I have sometimes thought it might not be undesirable, certainly it would not be from the standpoint of my department, if the other departments would pay the Public Works Department a rental for buildings which we erect forythem.

Topic:   SUPPLY-CLOTHING OF DISCHARGED CONVICTS.
Subtopic:   FISH POACHERS ON PACIFIC COAST.
Permalink

January 20, 1911