January 20, 1911

CON

John Graham Haggart

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. HAGGART (Lanark).

The Minister of Public Works has promised to perform all that is required of him by this House. Heretofore the plans of the various public buildings in the city of Ottawa have always been laid on the table of the House for our inspection. We are all, as the hon. member states, proud of the public buildings here in Ottawa, and we have always exercised the right to see the plans and to know what the Minister of Public Works intends to do in reference to them. Sometimes it has happened that opinions expressed in the House have had the 'effect of altering the plans. There is no blame to be attached to the Minister of Public Works because he did not adopt the plans he advertised for; he had prepared amended plans, which, he says, he will lay on the table of the House. He intends, before a vote is taken, submitting them to the House for our inspection.

Topic:   SUPPLY-CLOTHING OF DISCHARGED CONVICTS.
Subtopic:   NEW DEPARTMENTAL BUILDINGS.
Permalink

THE FISCAL POLICY OF CANADA.

LIB

David Bradley Neely

Liberal

Mr. NEELY.

I wish to ask a question which concerns the Postmaster General, and which refers to a report which appears in this morning's issue of the Ottawa ' Citizen,' and also of the Montreal ' Gazette.' The Postmaster General, speaking last night at the annual banquet of the Montreal branch of the Canadian Manufacturers' Association, is credited with the following statement regarding the fiscal policy of this country:-

Our commercial ascendency, thanks to the wise fiscal policy adopted by this country twenty-five years ago, is the admiration of the world to-day.

I rise to ask the Postmaster General if he did make that statement, and if he does Mr. PUGSLEY.

consider that this country has had but one fiscal policy during the last twenty-five years.

Topic:   SUPPLY-CLOTHING OF DISCHARGED CONVICTS.
Subtopic:   THE FISCAL POLICY OF CANADA.
Permalink
LIB

Rodolphe Lemieux (Postmaster General)

Liberal

Mr. LEMIEUX.

My attention has been drawn to the report published in the Montreal * Gazette,' and in the Ottawa * Citizen.' I notice there is a difference between the report published in the French papers and that published in the English papers. In the Montreal French papers of this morning I am quoted as having said that it was the policy adopted fifteen years ago; and that is in fact what I said. There is only a difference in figures, the English papers have a two instead of a one. Besides I may say that there was no fiscal policy adopted twenty-five years ago, the policy of protection was adopted thirty-two years ago, and the only other policy since adopted was the Fielding tariff of 1897. If my hon. friend will read the remarks made by the leader of the opposition on the same occasion, he will find that the leader of the opposition spoke of my reference to the fiscal policy of fifteen years ago, and he said I should have gone a little further back to get at the origin of our fiscal policy- these are about his words-they have practised what we have been preaching.

Topic:   SUPPLY-CLOTHING OF DISCHARGED CONVICTS.
Subtopic:   THE FISCAL POLICY OF CANADA.
Permalink
CON

George Eulas Foster

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. FOSTER.

When my hon. friend said fifteen years ago he was nearer right than he thought he was.

Topic:   SUPPLY-CLOTHING OF DISCHARGED CONVICTS.
Subtopic:   THE FISCAL POLICY OF CANADA.
Permalink
LIB

Rodolphe Lemieux (Postmaster General)

Liberal

Mr. LEMIEUX.

I do not wish to express any opinion, but merely to correct the statement.

Topic:   SUPPLY-CLOTHING OF DISCHARGED CONVICTS.
Subtopic:   THE FISCAL POLICY OF CANADA.
Permalink

WITHDRAWAL OF GOVERNMENT BILLS.

CON

David Henderson

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. HENDERSON.

A few moments ago the Minister of Labour (Mr. King) placed before you a motion to withdraw from the Order Paper two Bills, one relating to the manufacture of matches and the other relating to the importation of opium. We are not very sure whether these are the Bills he introduced last evening or whether they are the Bills that were introduced prior to his placing on the Order Paper the resolution on which they were based.

Topic:   SUPPLY-CLOTHING OF DISCHARGED CONVICTS.
Subtopic:   WITHDRAWAL OF GOVERNMENT BILLS.
Permalink
LIB

George Gerald King

Liberal

Mr. KING.

The Bills I asked to have withdrawn were those placed on the Order Paper prior to giving notice of the resolutions which were passed last night.

Topic:   SUPPLY-CLOTHING OF DISCHARGED CONVICTS.
Subtopic:   WITHDRAWAL OF GOVERNMENT BILLS.
Permalink

FISH POACHERS ON PACIFIC COAST.

CON

George Henry Barnard

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BARNARD.

I would like to call the attention once more of the Minister of Marine and Fisheries to the depredations, regular and constant, of American poachers upon the fisheries on the coast of the province of British Columbia, and more particularly on the west coast of Vancouver island. I brought this matter to his attention on the 16th of December last, and

called attention to an article which had just appeared in the Victoria Daily ' Colonist,' in which it was stated that officers and passengers of a passing vessel were surprised to see a string of light extending from Raphael Point to Estevan.

These lights belonged to a number of American fishing vessels engaged in poaching. The minister at that time betrayed such lamentable ignorance of the geography of the locus in quo that he got the fisheries of Hecate Straits confounded with those on the west coast of Vancouver island. It is in hope that the minister has since become better acquainted with the question during the recess, and has further lasted himself upon the topography of the country and of the condition of the fisheries out there, that I venture to bring this matter up again to-day. I may say that the game still goes on. I have extracts from our own press and from the press in the United States, showing that what is complained of is not an occasional raid by these fishermen, but is a systematic business carried on by a number of Americans who are robbing us of our fisheries contrary to law. I propose to read a few extracts which will substantiate this position. I quote now from the ' Colonist ' of the. 29th December:

The steamer 'Tees' which returned from Quatsino Sound and way ports of the west coast yesterday morning with 25 passengers and a small cargo, including gillbone and fertilizer from the whaling stations, bronght news that poaching by United States vessels is being continued off the west coast of Vancouver island, where the poachers use the harbours freely. One of the fishing vessels was tied up near the whaling station at Kyuquot when the steamer 'Tees' passed, and another was in Sidney Inlet.

The Seattle ' Times,' a newspaper published in the city of Seattle says:-

Part of the anxiety felt over the safety of the individual vessels of the Seattle halibut fleet this morning

Mark you, Mr. Speaker, ' the Seattle halibut fleet'; that is the Seattle halibut fleet that poaches on the west coast of Vancouver island.

-was relieved by news brought by Captain Sam Larsen of the steamship 'Standard No. 2' that the gasoline fishing schooners, 'Lief E.,' 'Woodbury,' 'La Paloma' and 'MalolV were safe and sound when he left the grounds near Sidney Inlet Monday.

For the information of my hon. friend, the Minister of Marine and Fisheries, in case he does not know, I will tell him that Sidney Inlet is on the west coast of Vancouver Island.

The report made by the captain of the Standard Oil steamship, 'Col. E. L. Drake,' that he had seen the wreck of a halibut fishing vessel near Cape Flattery some days ago

l as caused anxiety about all vessels now absent from port.

I would like his attention to be given for a moment to this too:

Preparations now are being made for a number of gasoline schooners to leave within the next few days. Among those about to start are the 'Corona,' 'Roosevelt,' 'Northland,' 'Daisy' and 'Ida May.' The 'Ida May' possibly will be detained in getting away, as she has to have a new engine installed.

That is from a Seattle newspaper and is dated the 29th December. Again, on the 7th January, the following appears in the same paper, the Seattle ' Times '. I quote from the 'Colonist' of January 7, 1911:-

The Seattle 'Times' of yesterday tells of the departure of another fleet for Sidney Inlet.' The 'Times' says: The schooner 'Wiedling Bros.' arrived in port last night with 45,000 pounds of halibut, one of the largest catches recently reported. Together with the 'Northland,'-

The ' Northland ' is one of the boats mentioned in the ' Times ' of the 29th December.

-*' Annie Larsen ' and ' Sophie Jones,' the 'Wiedling Bros.' is preparing to sail again for the fishing banks. It is expected that the four vessels will get away from port sometime to-night. An attempt will he made first to fish off Cape Flattery, hut if the weather will not permit the vessels will proceed to Sidney Inlet.

I submit that these reports show that there are two fleets maintained in Seattle for the purpose of exploiting these fisheries, and the complaint I make is not of an occasional raid which my friends of the fishery protection service might possibly find it difficult to deal with,_ but of the systematic and organized, business in which there is a number of schooners employed all the year around. It is an outrage upon the people of British Columbia to think that this government is absolutely^ unable to cope with the situation. Some little explanation may be given of this. We have the explanation of Captain Newcombe of the ' Kestrel.' I may say, as I have before stated in this House, that the ' Kestrel ' is an ordinary fishery cruiser that Captain Newcombe has time and time and time again told the department of Marine and Fisheries is absolutely unfit for the service. She is too slow, she is not properly equipped and is absolutely useless for the service in which she is engaged. Captain Newcombe explains the reason why..he did not go to the west coast of Vancouver island. According to his own statement, if he had gone there, he would not have got any of these pirates, but probably he would have driven them away, because his boat is too slow to catch them. He says, according to a report in the ' Colonist ' newspaper.

The 'Kestrel's' orders have been, to cruise in Hecate straits, and although the depredations of the poaching vessels on the west coast of Vancouver island was known to her officers they were unable to proceed there, because in the first place their orders were explicit to remain in the north despite the fact that the poachers had changed their sphere of operations, and in the second place, the 'Kestrel' is not considered a suitable vessel for winter weather off the west coast of Vancouver island.

It cannot exactly be news to my hon. friend the Minister of Marine and Fisheries to hear that the poachers were not to be expected in Hecate straits, but notwithstanding that fact, he ordered his cruiser to stay there and catch the poachers in a place where no poachers would go. I say that because I find in the report of the fisheries protection service of this year at page 353 that it is stated:

During the present season halibut has been extremely scarce in Hecate straits, and consequently the competition between fishermen very keen.

The fact of the matter is, that the Hecate straits fishing grounds have been seriously depleted by the depredations of the American fishermen. In the report of the department for the year 1908, I think, the minister, or his officers, states that halibut to the extent of 1,500,000 lbs, the value of which I have forgotten, was illegally taken from the banks of Hecate straits by American fishermen. That thing has been going on for a long time with the result that to-day the size of the halibut in Hecate straits has decreased to such an extent that it is no longer a desirable fishing ground, and fishermen have transferred their operations to the new banks which have been discovered on the west coast of Vancouver island. This matter is not new. We have, this year, Mr. John J. Williams, Inspector of Fisheries, complaining that the ' Falcon ' which was going to be kept on the ground, was inadequate for the purpose. We have had this matter taken up iri this House at various times and we had a most admirable speech made by Mr. Sloan, then member for Comox-Atlin, in which he went fully into this matter. We also had a speech from the Minister of Marine and Fisheries himself, on the subject, which will be found in ' Hansard ' of 1906-7, page 1777. He states there:-

I have found that there is a great deal of poaching done, especially on the western coast of Vancouver and within the three mile limit. If, how-ever, we have not the right to go outside the three mile limit in Hecate strait and Dixon entrance, I think we should adopt the policy of protecting our Canadian fisheries. We are very glad to see the American fishermen taking so much interest in our fisheries, but at the same time it is the duty of the government to protect those fisheries Mr. BARNARD.

and keep them for our Canadian citizens. As they belong to us, they should be exploited by us; and if American fishermen go there they should at least-as has been done in the case of a New Washington company- give us as much benefit as possible. But we must do on the Pacific coast what I have said should be done with regard to the Atlantic coast. I am free to admit, however, that there seems to be more business activity shown by Canadians on the British Columbia coast. _ Our financial institutions have been ii vesting large sums there, which is a condition of affairs I am glad to see. For my part, I am ready to take all the necessary steps to protect our fisheries along that coast. I have asked my colleagues to put at the disposal of my department another boat, a cruiser, which should be devoted almost exclusively to the protection of our fisheries. A sum is in the estimates for that purpose on which the House will be asked to vote; but I am sure, from the tenor of this discussion, that all the hon. members will be glad to co-operate with the government in that respect and give us the means of protecting our fisheries in the west, as we are doing in the east.

That was in 1906. In 1907, just before the general elections, the same vote was put in the estimates, but there is no cruiser yet. In 1909, shortly after the general election, I was informed by the minister that plans had been prepared for a cruiser, and I think he said that tenders had been called for. We have not got that cruiser yet, and apparently we are no nearer to having her than we were before. The hon. gentleman may say that the ' Rainbow ' is adapted for this purpose, and I understand that there was some kind of an arrangement that in addition to being used as a training ship the ' Rainbow ' was to be engaged in this service. However, the facts appear to be that these fishing boats lie so close inshore that the ' Rainbow,' with her heavy draught, would be useless for the service. The most suitable craft is a speedy gasoline boat of 20 or 25 knots, because these American fishing boats are all equipped with high power gasoline engines, and they can get out of the way of a steamer whose smoke they can see a great distance off. The fisheries of British Columbia to-day lead in productiveness the fisheries of the rest of the Dominion, and it is only in British Columbia that the revenues received bv the Dominion from the fisheries far exceeds the expenditure. Prof. Prince, in his report, states that the British Columbia fisheries are probably the finest in the world, and it is the undoubted right of the people of that province to demand from this government that these fisheries shall be protected from depletion by the depredations which are now going on. I ask that the government shall provide, in the estimates this year, an appropriation for one or two gasoline boats to he used in this protective service.

Topic:   SUPPLY-CLOTHING OF DISCHARGED CONVICTS.
Subtopic:   FISH POACHERS ON PACIFIC COAST.
Permalink
LIB

Louis-Philippe Brodeur (Minister of the Naval Service; Minister of Marine and Fisheries)

Liberal

Mr. BRODEUR.

Some time ago my hon. friend (Mr. Barnard) read an article from a paper published in Victoria, and stated that there were depredations on the fisheries of British Columbia, and particularly on the west coast of Vancouver inland. The hon. gentleman has been trying to poke fun at me, because, as he hints, I am not familiar with the geography of the country, but I would point out to the hon. gentleman that he read the newspaper article in such a low voice that I could not hear it, and then, after reading the article, he referred especially to Hecate straits, which lead me to think that his remarks were directed particularly to these waters.

Topic:   SUPPLY-CLOTHING OF DISCHARGED CONVICTS.
Subtopic:   FISH POACHERS ON PACIFIC COAST.
Permalink
CON

George Henry Barnard

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BARNARD.

I am afraid the hon. gentleman was not listening.

Topic:   SUPPLY-CLOTHING OF DISCHARGED CONVICTS.
Subtopic:   FISH POACHERS ON PACIFIC COAST.
Permalink
LIB

Louis-Philippe Brodeur (Minister of the Naval Service; Minister of Marine and Fisheries)

Liberal

Mr. BRODEUR.

On the contrary, I was paying every attention, but unfortunately, I could not hear the hon. gentleman's reading, and sq, while part of my answers was directed to what I did hear, the other part may not have been appropriate to his question. If, when the hon. gentleman wishes to question me in future, he would give notice, I shall bring with me.all the papers in the matter and be better equipped to answer him than I can possibly be speaking on the spur of the moment. However, the hon. gentleman will find, from the public documents, that we have largely increased, in recent years, the fishery protective service on the British Columbia coast. Perhaps it is not yet as efficient as it should be in view of the very active development of the fisheries there and the necessity for properly protecting them. I think, however, that the new addition made to the fleet will enable us to cope with the situation more effectively. It is true, as stated by the hon. gentleman, that some years ago we had a vote in the estimates for the purchase of a vessel, but although we did not purchase a vessel then we did charter one for the special purpose of looking after the fisheries.

Topic:   SUPPLY-CLOTHING OF DISCHARGED CONVICTS.
Subtopic:   FISH POACHERS ON PACIFIC COAST.
Permalink
CON

George Henry Barnard

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BARNARD.

Was that the ' Wm. Jolliffc?'

Topic:   SUPPLY-CLOTHING OF DISCHARGED CONVICTS.
Subtopic:   FISH POACHERS ON PACIFIC COAST.
Permalink
LIB

Louis-Philippe Brodeur (Minister of the Naval Service; Minister of Marine and Fisheries)

Liberal

Mr. BRODEUR.

I do not remember the name of the vessel.

Topic:   SUPPLY-CLOTHING OF DISCHARGED CONVICTS.
Subtopic:   FISH POACHERS ON PACIFIC COAST.
Permalink
CON

George Henry Barnard

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BARNARD.

Is she not released from charter now?

Topic:   SUPPLY-CLOTHING OF DISCHARGED CONVICTS.
Subtopic:   FISH POACHERS ON PACIFIC COAST.
Permalink
LIB

Louis-Philippe Brodeur (Minister of the Naval Service; Minister of Marine and Fisheries)

Liberal

Mr. BRODEUR.

If it was the ' Jolliffe ' I do not think she is now chartered.

Topic:   SUPPLY-CLOTHING OF DISCHARGED CONVICTS.
Subtopic:   FISH POACHERS ON PACIFIC COAST.
Permalink
CON

George Henry Barnard

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BARNARD.

Was there any other vessel chartered for that purpose?

Topic:   SUPPLY-CLOTHING OF DISCHARGED CONVICTS.
Subtopic:   FISH POACHERS ON PACIFIC COAST.
Permalink
LIB

Louis-Philippe Brodeur (Minister of the Naval Service; Minister of Marine and Fisheries)

Liberal

Mr. BRODEUR.

I do not keep all these details in my memory, and I cannot now recall. I may say that after the vote appeared in the estimates the plans had to be prepared, and we afterwards thought that we could purchase the ' Rainbow ' Notwithstanding what my hon. friend says, I think the ' Rainbow ' is suitable for doing a large part of this work. She may not be

able to enter certain waters where poachers are likely to be found, I do not think it advisable that poachers should be informed as to what our plans are, but I can assure my hon. friend that we are taking all the necessary steps to protect adequately the fisheries of the British Columbia coast.

Topic:   SUPPLY-CLOTHING OF DISCHARGED CONVICTS.
Subtopic:   FISH POACHERS ON PACIFIC COAST.
Permalink

January 20, 1911