January 20, 1911

LIB

William Pugsley (Minister of Public Works)

Liberal

Mr. PUGSLEY.

I might give erroneous information. My information would only be hearsay.

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CON

William Sora Middlebro

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. MIDDLEBRO.

I understand that a student in that college .graduates as a civil engineer, and then, when he leaves the military college, he is under no obligation to serve the state as a military man? If that be the case, I do not know that we are justified spending money for that purpose, especially under the head of a military building. Personally, I do not think I would be justified in voting for this resolution. As the hon. member for West Elgin (Mr. Crothers) has said, this seems to be a vpry exorbitant sum that we are going to pay. It amounts to $1,000 per Joed for sleeping accommodation for the 100 students who go to that college, many of whom do not go there for the military training, and. for the purpose of serving the state in a military capacity, but simply to receive an education which will enable them to earn a livelihood in other professions. Does the $75,000 include furniture, fittings, electric lighting, or heating-

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LIB

William Pugsley (Minister of Public Works)

Liberal

Mr. PUGSLEY.

The $75,000 is estimated to include everything. I have not a detailed estimate, but that is what the chief architect tells me.

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CON
LIB
CON

William Sora Middlebro

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. MIDDLEBRO.

From our experience in the past of the actual cost of public buildings, especially at Kingston, as compared with the estimated cost, we are justified in saying that this will probably cost $100,000, or $1,000 per student. What guarantee have we that, even if we put up this building, the 100 extra students which it will accommodate will apply to be accommodated? Has the minister any assurance to that effect?

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LIB
CON
LIB
CON

William Sora Middlebro

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. MIDDLEBRO.

At the instance, probably, of the hon. member for Kingston (Mr. Harty).

Mr. PUGSLEY\ No, I have not heard from him at all.

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CON

William Sora Middlebro

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. MIDDLEBRO.

I think we are not justified in voting that amount for that purpose. I therefore move that the item be struck out.

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LIB
LIB

William Harty

Liberal

Mr. HARTY.

If I may offer a few words in explanation, I can give some information regarding the position of the college and the necessity for the building now under consideration, and the committee may then have a little better knowledge of the situation than at present. I have been slow to take any part in the discussion for the simple reason that while the college is called the Kingston Military College, as a matter of fact it is not in Kingston. It is situated in the riding of Frontenac, and I presume that the information which has been asked by various members might very properly have been furnished by the hon. member for that riding (Mr. Edwards) did he see fit to give it, rather than bv myself, who represents a riding which is barely adjoining that in which this college is situated. The college, being in the county of Frontenac, in the village across the bay from Kingston, is usually known by the name of the Kingston Military College, no doubt from the fact of its being close to the city, which is much larger than the village of Barriefield, some three miles away, where it really is. The situation regarding the building is this: The wing which has been in use as a dormitory ever since the college was opened, was built by the Imperial government long years ago, and the late Alexander McKenzie was foreman of its construction. That building has been in use as a dormitory ever since the college was opened. For the past four or five years every room, which should be occupied by a single student or cadet, instead qf being used only by one, has to accommodate two or three, and I believe, in some few instances, four. This made it necessary for the Commandant of the institution to ask the government to provide an additional building to be used as a dormitory, so that every cadet could be housed and cared for in a room of his own. Whether that is advisable or not is a question for the House to determine, and it is not for me to offer any opinion upon it. Regarding the ques-

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CON

Adam Brown Crosby

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. CKOSBY.

The hon. member misquoted me altogether. I did not speak with regard to the doing away with the military college at Kingston, I simply spoke of the effect of making additions; of going on increasing militarism in Canada when I thought that we required the money for something else. If I indicated anything else I did not intend to do so.

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LIB
CON

Adam Brown Crosby

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. CROSBY.

So far as the naval college in my own city is concerned, I think it is something like the college in Kingston, it is a college with nothing for the people to do after they get through it. We have a naval college but no navy up to the present day, and there does not seem to be much hope of getting one either under present conditions. I do not propose to discuss that question, the people in Halifax are prepared to deal with it and we have already put ourselves on record in regard to it. I have put myself on record in regard to the naval college and the navy and I feel something the same about that, as about the extension of the college at Kingston. If there is an estimate in this book that should be struck out, it is this very estimate that we are on now and I am quite prepared to vote that it be struck out. The Minister of Public Works tells us he cannot build a post offioe here or there, although requisitions have been in for years and years, and members on both sides have requested public buildings, yet we find that money is being thrown into an institution which the Minister of Public Works tells us is turning out engineers. There are other colleges in Canada turning out engineers, both civil and mechanical, and why should we set ourselves up in competition with these colleges all over the Dominion, which we are so glad to have. The military college has 104 students and we are now prepared to extend it and make room for another 100.

I wonder what the farmers and other electors will think of this. If we go on spending $100,000 every two or four years on this college, we will soon have more fuss and feathers in Canada than anything else. That is not what I am here for. I am here

to try and do the best I can for the people of Canada and not to go on constructing additions to the military college at Kingston. I have every desire and wish that this item should be struck out of the estimates.

Item allowed to stand.

Listowel public building, $18,000.

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LIB

William Pugsley (Minister of Public Works)

Liberal

Mr. PUGSLEY.

This is to provide for the erection of a public building in Listo-we'l. The population was 2,693, nine years ago. It is growing well, the revenue from the post office is $6,000 odd, $30,000 were paid for money orders issued and $25,000 paid. The plans are now being prepared.

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CON

Thomas Simpson Sproule

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. SPROULE.

This is another example of what I spoke of, either loading up the estimates with items that it is not intended to go on with, or that are not needed.

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LIB

William Pugsley (Minister of Public Works)

Liberal

Mr. PUGSLEY.

There has been no unnecessary delay. An order in council was passed in March, 1909, to purchase a site. In the ordinary course we had to prepare plans and there is a vast deal of work in the department, hon. gentlemen do not realize how much. The architects are constantly at work and are doing the best they can. There has been no unnecessary delay.

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CON

Arthur Meighen

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. MEIGHEN.

What is done by the department after the plans are prepared and entirely approved of by the other departments concerned ? ,

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January 20, 1911